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Old 07-15-2010, 15:31   #31
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Update

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I-Team: Father of Man Shot by Police at Costco Speaks
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Old 07-19-2010, 23:17   #32
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[QUOTE=nmap;339471]Update

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I-Team: Father of Man Shot by Police at Costco Speaks

Yes lots of conflicting reports both official / non - official
the investigating team is still sifting through a lot of details.

everything like this goes through the coroner's inquest first.

I can tell you one version is he went into the store picking fights with people, management called police and evacuated store, Metro showed up and apparently Erik lifted up his shirt showing his Kimber .45, supposedly drawing it. This is the basis of the initial "Official" report.

This is a statement from my friend on the investigating team
"Let me assure you. My agency will do the right thing. If the officers were wrong, they won't just lose their jobs, they will go to prison. "

I'll pass along anything relevant
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Old 07-19-2010, 23:31   #33
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Originally Posted by Sierra Bravo View Post
I'll pass along anything relevant
Thank you very much.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:32   #34
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Well someone has transcribed the radio chatter from the call.

Something interesting comes up around the 13:18 mark. I have marked it in bold.

Audio can be downloaded here:
http://www.filedropper.com/costcoois1

Transcript:
Dispatcher: Units in V3, a 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. The male is inside the business to the rear of, has a 413 that's tucked into the back of his pants. We're still landline. (6:53)

K916: K916 back on channel. (7:03)

D: K916 (7:04)

AIR5: AIR5, we're going to go to the Costco first. (7:11)

D: AIR5, copy. (7:14)

2X12: 2X12 (7:20)

D: 2X12 (7:21)

2X12: You can disregard the air unit, I see customers coming out (related to a seperate 407A) (7:25)

D: 2X12 copy. K914, if you could be en route with AIR5 on the 413 at Costco in V3, 801 S. Pavillion Center. (7:35)

K916: K916, you can assign me as well. (7:42)

D: K916, copy. (7:44)

D: 2V16, if you'll also be en route on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. The male inside the business is acting erratic, throwing merchandise around, possibly high on unknown type of 446. (8:03)

2V16: 2V16 copy, from the Suncoast. (8:07)

D: 2V16, they are requesting CIT. Male is possibly ED. 767, did you copy? (8:16)

767: Put me en route to that please. (8:19)

D: 767. (8:21)

2DP62: 2DP62, clear me and show me en route. (8:25)

D: 2DP62. (8:26)

767: 767 (8:37)

D: 767. (8:38)

767: Go ahead and have medical en route also, just to stand by for us. (8:41)

D: 767, copy. (8:42)

2V55: 2V55, can you clear me B-baker and show me en route to Costco. (8:53)

D: 2V55, affirmative. (8:56)

2V16: 2V16 en route code. (8:58)

D: 2V16 (9:00)

2V55: 2V55, same traffic. (9:04)

D: 2V55 (9:05)

351WC: 351. (9:11)

D: 351 (9:12)

351WC: Have those units shut down code when they get close. Let's not get this guy more exicted than he already is. (9:18)

D: 351, copy. Units, shut down code when you get close to the Costco. (pause) (9:23)

D: Units en route on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center, suspect's described as a White male, 32, 5'8, medium build, red hair, wearing a gray t-shirt, blue jeans, and white shoes, break. A black 9MM is tucked to the rear of his pants. (pause) (9:53)

D: 767, could you advise where you'd like medical to stage for now? (10:46)

767: Just have them stage, uh to the nearest intersection to that Costco. If you could have them not roll code, that'd be great also. (10:57)

D: 767 copy. Did you want other units to shut down code? (11:02)

767: I just want everybody to shut it down before they get close to that area; I don't want to spook this guy. (11:08)

D: Okay, copy. All units, justs reminding to shut down code when you get close to the area. (11:13)
767: 767 (11:18)

D: 767 (11:20)

767: I need a few more units that could head to that area also, so that we can shut down that parking lot so that nobody goes in or out of there. (11:28)

D: 767, copy. (11:31)

2X12: 2X12, you can assign me. (11:33)

D: 2X12 (11:35)

2X65: 2X65, same traffic. (11:43)

D: 2X65 (11:45)

351WC: Control, 351, where's the CP going to be? (11:49)

D: 767, can you advise? (11:54)

767: I'm not even close to there right now, so if we have a unit that's in there that could set up one real quick, that'd be great. (12:01)

2V54: 2V54, I'm arriving in the Costco parking lot, where do you want me? (12:07)

D: 2V54, at this time uh, I guess heading up a CP. (12:16)

AIR5: AIR5, did you have any further at all? (12:22)

D: It looks like the subject is still inside the business, argumentative with the manager who asked him to leave, telling him there's no 413's allowed inside the business, break. The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413. He's throwing merchandise around; he's still in isle 126 in the camping area, break. He appears to be fidgety. A female joined the male. She's described as Hispanic, 30s, black long hair, wearing black tank and blue jeans. Security's going to be standing outside the business in front of, to wait for officers to direct, break. He's walking through the camping area towards the front of the business on the main isle. (13:18)

2V54: 2V54, did you want me to stop people from going in the business? (13:22)

D: Uh 767, that's affirmative. Stop in or out? (13:26)

767: Affirm. (13:28)

D: V54, affirmative, uh V54, did you want a red? (13:32)

2V54: Hold off for a moment. (13:34)

D: Okay, copy. (13:35)

2X65: Control, 2X65 (13:37)

D: 2X65 (13:38)

2X65: Run this by the WC and Sarge. If we could get the management and employees to start slowly evacuating people out of the business without alerting anybody, that'd be a great idea. (13:50)

351WC: Control, 351WC, absolutely. (13:53)

D: Acknowledge that. (13:57)

2V54: 2V54, manager says it's escalating inside and he's still talking loudly and destroying merchandise. (14:06)

D: 2V54, copy. 2V54, are you able to get security started on exacuations? (14:14)

2V54: Affirm (14:16)

D: Okay, copy. (14:17)

2V16: 2V16, I'm out with 2V54. (14:55)

D: 2V16 (14:57)

Unknown bit of traffic (14:59)

D: All units, code red this channel. Officers arriving on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. (15:07)

2V16: 2V16, we need units to clear these people out of here. We're attempting to evacuate right now; get as many people out as possible. (15:45)

D: 2V16, copy. (15:47)

351WC: 351WC, where's the CP? (16:45)

D: Uh 2V54, can you advise location of CP? (16:50)

AIR5: AIR5, they're both right in the front entrance to the store. (16:55)

D: AIR5, copy. (16:57)

784: 767, 784 I'm arrived. What can I help you out with? (17:07)

767: You can set up the CP, that'd be great. (17:10)

784: : Copy, I'll set one up. (17:15)

AIR5: AIR5, are we still landline with anyone who has eyes on this guy, because there's a lot of people pouring out of the store. I just want to make sure he doesn't slip out. (17:28)

2V16: We got 2 officers here at the front doors watching everybody come out. (17:36)

D: 2V16, copy. AIR5, it looks like we're still landline. It looks like the male is still being watched by inside personnel due to him ripping open packages. They're concerned of a 414A. (17:49)

2V16: Copy, we've got a very orderly evacuation going on right now. We'll try to get all these people out of here and then figure out what we're going to do next. (18:00)

D: 2V16. (18:01)

2V54: He's directly in the middle of the building. (18:08)

D: Okay, copy. Confirming suspect's directly in the center of the building? (18:14)

2V54: ___ isle. (18:16)

D: You broke on the isle, could you re-advise? (18:20)

784: 784, copy location for IC. (18:31)

D: 784 (18:32)

784: It's going to be set up at the northwest parking lot at the Red Rock Casino across Charleston. It'll be the Costco command. I'll be incident commander until the arrival of 351WC. (18:46)

D: 784 copy. 351WC, incident command at northwest parking lot of Red Rock Casino across Charleston. (18:55)

AIR5: Control, AIR5, we need 1 unit to take the north side of the Costco please, right off of Pavillion Center so they can keepy an eye on the back and the east side. (19:02)

2V16: (yell) 2V16, we got shots fired, shots fired! (19:11)

D: 2V16, copy. Anyone down? (19:12)

2V16: Roll medical. (19:13)

D: 2V16. (19:15)

767: Go ahead and make the notifications. (19:19)

2V16: Notify supervisor. (19:21)

D: 2V16, copy. (19:22)

351WC: 351WC, I'm arrived, south end of the building. Is it safe for everybody else to enter the building? (19:28)

D: 2V16, can you advise? (19:30)

2V16: He pulled a 413 and pointed it in my direction. (19:38)

D: 2V16, copy. (19:40)

767: 767, can yu go ahead and make your notifications, please? (19:43)

D: 767, copy. (19:45)

767: Shut that parking lot down, please. (19:47)

D: Units arriving on the 413, shut down the parking lot. (19:51)

AIR5: They've got him out front, they're taking him into custody. Hold the traffic. (19:57)

D: AIR5, copy. Subject is out front, taking into custody. (20:01)

767: 767, let's make sure nobody else exit's that Costco right now. We may need to pull witness statements. (20:17)

D: 767, copy. Units, make sure no one else exits the Costco, they may need for witness purposes. (20:24)

784: Copy that they're taking him into custody. We're going to move the CP closer to the Burger King directly across from the Costco. (20:35)

D: Copy that, CP will be moving closer to the Burger King (20:39)
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Dispatch
Old 07-20-2010, 08:39   #35
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Dispatch

"............D: It looks like the subject is still inside the business, argumentative with the manager who asked him to leave, telling him there's no 413's allowed inside the business, break. The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413. He's throwing merchandise around; he's still in isle 126 in the camping area, break. He appears to be fidgety. A female joined the male. She's described as Hispanic, 30s, black long hair, wearing black tank and blue jeans. Security's going to be standing outside the business in front of, to wait for officers to direct, break. He's walking through the camping area towards the front of the business on the main isle. (13:18).............."

Dispatch was saying a lot about what the individual was doing.

Lots of talk about what he was doing inside.

When are we going to see the inside tapes? What was the "....throwing merchandise around;....."? Did he have something in his hand that he was going to buy but after being asked to leave he threw it on the counter?

Wonder who the manager was? Green Beret? Was the manager the one at fault? Pumped up the situation and gave the police a false impression of what was going on inside?
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:12   #36
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Well, from what I've been reading is that "there was a 'technical issue' with the security camera equipment that has made the tapes either 'unavailable' or of 'not good enough quality to be of use'"

The 2 most popular theories I've heard in the carry community where I'm from are:
An employee noticed the man carrying, asked the man to leave, the man stated that he has a permit for his weapon and does not need to. The employee went and told the manager that the man was being difficult. The manager then called the police and either told them what he thought would just be a "simple white lie" to get them there faster.

and

The manager was notified of the man carrying or noticed himself, then he decided to confront the man and was rebuffed and decided to teach the man a lesson.

Either way this stinks heavily.

ETA:
http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12816105
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:32   #37
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I interpret the tapes differently. I am MORE suspicious of the victim than of the police response after reading this small piece of the puzzle. I won't condemn the victim yet, but I think it is ignorant to place a lot of suspicion and blame on the employees or police as well.

I usually find that this forum's members have a disgust for armchair commando/ quarterbacking based on initial after action reports and subsequent days worth of research and background perspective. That information is not what the officers responding to this report had in their decision making process.

The victim's father seems to smell some fishy behavior on his son's part as well based on his statement. It is a very tragic story and outcome, but I'm betting there is a LOT more to this story. We will see.

FWIW, if you are carrying concealed ( as I do often), the rules of the game are tilted much more towards Big Boy rules. You give the a responding officer no choice. Deep down, I think everyone on this site knows the ramifications of "allegedly" acting in such a fashion when armed and getting into conflict.
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The security tapes....
Old 07-20-2010, 09:46   #38
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The security tapes....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacamuelas View Post
.....I usually find that this forum's members have a disgust for armchair commando/ quarterbacking based on initial after action reports...................
As had been talked about before - the officers responding only had the information that was given by dispatch - which was gotten from the Costco employees.

The first key to all this is the inside security tapes showing his actions. Real funny how they are not available.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:03   #39
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RIP Mr. Scott.

Sorry for your loss, Shar.

You can bet the video at the entrance to the store will be controlled now.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:14   #40
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On the Costco/ police issue:
I will agree with you, I am somewhat suspicious about the actions of the man. When/ if confronted he should have asked to speak to a manager, and if they still requested he should have left instead of gotten into an argument (if that is what happened).

I don't enough about what happened once the police got on scene to make a decision on that issue. I don't know if anyone but those involved in the incident do.

But something stinks on the side of the Costco people (technical issues with the equipment for example).

On carrying:
I believe that when carrying (I prefer OC to CC) you must act as a representative of the carry community, and you imagine that all your actions are being scrutinized twice as hard as if you were not carrying (even if concealed). Not to say that one should be nervous about carrying, but one must have better SA and a better thought process.

If someone sees you acting like an a hole/ miscreant while carrying you are more likely to have an unpleasant encounter with someone and/ or the police.

If someone sees you acting in a grown up/ professional manner you are more likely to have a pleasant encounter with someone and/ or the police and may change a few minds about the "crazy gun carrying community."
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:17   #41
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I wasn't there, theoretically speaking only, Someone with a CCW/CHL and a weapon on them, if asked to leave, needs to leave immediately. Period.

Refusing to leave can turn into a criminal trespass with a weapon charge.

It will be interesting to see what really happened as best as can be determined without the tapes.

As to OC, there is no element of surprise at all. If I were a crook and really wanted what someone was carrying, I may take it after they are no longer breathing, no matter how much testosterone and SA they claim to have. Hope OC folks are experts at weapons retention.

To each his own, YMMV.

Back to the service road.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:43   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
RIP Mr. Scott.

Sorry for your loss, Shar.

You can bet the video at the entrance to the store will be controlled now.
The above should have been typed by me first. I sometimes get ahead of myself when trying to get a post before I have to get back to patients.


Pete, I agree that the tapes should be released. If they are ruined.... then that would add to the conspiracy side of the argument. However, I imagine that the manager was very quickly questioned and detained for the investigation. Other employees would have been watching the video as well. I would imagine it difficult for the manager to destroy the tapes after the shooting. possible... but difficult.

No matter what... It is a tragedy for all involved. RIP
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:44   #43
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(Not wanting to hijack the thread, but discussing a somewhat related issue.)

Refusing to leave is not really an option, that is agreed. But asking to speak to a manager before leaving can bring up something that can cause a business to stop posting and change their stance on the issue of allowing/ disallowing carriers in their business.
Here in MN the most one can get for simply refusing to leave (as long as one doesn't aggravate the situation if LEOs are called) is a $25 trespass ticket, nothing more, no loss of permit, or other charges (again, unless the situation is aggravated). But still it is best to leave.

The debate on CC vs OC is an endless one, and barring law forbidding one or the other, a pointless one. I prefer OC in a shoulder holster (so, part time CC also), and occasionally in a OWB because it is more comfortable for me. Ive tried a couple custom IWB holsters, but nothing really comfortable.

There have been stories of criminals thinking of robbing someone/ someplace but upon seeing someone OCing have not gone through with it, or given up.

Most of the anti OC stories have been about uniformed police officers, who usually either were the main target, or had to inject themselves into an already charged situation.

But above all else SA is a mandatory part of a skill set either when OCing or CCing.


ETA:
I would also like to add my condolences to Mr. Scott's friends and family.
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Last edited by aharris; 07-20-2010 at 11:53. Reason: Clarification.
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security cameras
Old 07-20-2010, 12:08   #44
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security cameras

My neighbor's car was broken into in a Walmart parking lot. She calls the police. The police arrive and my neighbor, pointing up to a security camera, says at least they have a film of the crime. The police officer (HPD) just smiles and responds, "Maam, not one in twenty of those things work. Some were never even intended to work." This is referring to cameras OUTSIDE only.
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Old 07-20-2010, 12:24   #45
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Yea, the problem is that they don't have or cant view the footage from inside to back up the reports of him acting erratically either.
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