Annealing Brass - How to videos

[Buffalobob]

Brass is an alloy and it behaves differently from many other metal alloys. Brass work hardens and loses its softness and ability to deform. For a knife you would wish the alloy to be hard and to be resistant to being bent. Just the opposite is true for a brass cartridge. When you run it through a sizing die you wish it to bend and deform and take the shape of the die. If it is work hardened it will be springy and when it comes out of the die it will spring back to the shape it was in before you resized it. All your time cleaning it up has been wasted because it is not resized. Then it will not want to hold a bullet in the neck nor will it chamber well.

In order for a black gun to function well, the brass must be considerable less than chamber size. This is exactly the opposite of a single shot rifle designed for extreme accuracy. So it is of extreme importance to the black gun to avoid a piece of brass that is tight and does not slide into the chamber easily. It is also important to have enough neck tension that the bullets do not jar back into the case and decrease case capacity and increase pressures or the opposite of actually starting to come out of the case and becoming too long to feed properly. The only way you can get neck tension on the bullet is for the sizing die to actually deform the fired case back to the prefired size. If the case is work hardened it will spring back to being too excessively big after it comes out of the sizing die and will not hold the bullet very tightly. There is an option of crimping the bullets but in the end this options will fail because the case is too large to chamber well and the neck will split.

For most rifles, work hardening happens after about four or five firings and reloadings. Another sign that you are negligent and derelict in your annealing duties is that your case necks have gotten so work hardened that they are splitting. This is a sign that you believe noise will compensate for intelligence. Without annealing, case necks will split at about 8-10 firings.

So here is a set of videos on how to anneal brass. The key here is a dull red color in a dimly lit room. Bright cherry red color means you are off your ADD meds and should not have been on this forum in the first place. If you get to thinking about other things such as whether your wife knows about your new girlfriend while annealing and let one get too hot as I do in the video just say “Aw Sh1t” and dump it in the tub with rest of them and go on.

Unlike knives ---- quenching is of no importance. It just means you have to use less bandaids when you pick up hot pieces of brass. Quenching does nothing for brass. You can air cool it if you wish. It also gives you a lot to do to try to get it dry again

Now then if your next door neighbor is a jarhead and has been outshooting you at the range then show him how to anneal brass except have him anneal the case head. Annealing the case head will cause case head separations which are always fun in a black gun. You should have your video camera handy so you can record the jarhead swearing while bleeding profusely from the face and hands.

Now you should also think about the 27 banana clips you have buried in the PVC tubing in your back yard for the last seven years and wonder how those compressed springs are going to work when Osama and 123 extremist terrorist attack your home. Life is just full of things to worry about.


Here are the three videos



http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n...0312082212.flv


http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n...0312104425.flv


http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n...3121054372.flv

[Medula Oblongata]

If you're annealing large quantities of brass, a rotary annealing machine is handy and inexpensive to have.

http://www.zephyrdynamics.com/page3.html

http://longrangehunting.com/forums/f...nnealer-14208/

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Medula Oblongata

If you're annealing large quantities of brass, a rotary annealing machine is handy and inexpensive to have.

http://www.zephyrdynamics.com/page3.html

http://longrangehunting.com/forums/f...nnealer-14208/

MO:

Roger but why would anyone want to go through this process unless they were really radically reforming brass?

If the chamber is made well and you use a bushing type of sizing die -- brass will give up the ghost due to primer pocket expansion well before a neck will crack. I exclude the M-14 from this as no matter what you do or the quality of the M-14 chamber -- you will get probably five shots from a piece of brass before you weaken the head to the point where you are courting a headspace separation.

So, I often wonder about the need to anneal cases that are already annealed.

Gene

[Bill Harsey]

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.
Anytime brass is heated enough, like red heat, you lose zinc and have changed the chemical composition of the brass your working with. This doesn't make the brass better.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

MO:

Roger but why would anyone want to go through this process unless they were really radically reforming brass?

If the chamber is made well and you use a bushing type of sizing die -- brass will give up the ghost due to primer pocket expansion well before a neck will crack. I exclude the M-14 from this as no matter what you do or the quality of the M-14 chamber -- you will get probably five shots from a piece of brass before you weaken the head to the point where you are courting a headspace separation.

So, I often wonder about the need to anneal cases that are already annealed.

Gene

I only anneal brass when I am case forming, let say .357 mag to .256 Win Mag.

I have the same question as Gene. This is a area I feel all the bit like a novice at.

[Buffalobob]

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.
Anytime brass is heated enough, like red heat, you lose zinc and have changed the chemical composition of the brass your working with. This doesn't make the brass better.

Interestingly enough, brass has a surprising amount of lead in it. Now it is required that brass for plumbing fixtures be certified to be lead free ( I actually played some small role in causing that to happen).

But as you point out if you get it bright red or even dull red for too long you have messed it up the wrong way and it will be too soft. The machines that anneal, do so at low temperatures for longer periods of time. It does not matter which way it is done as long as you do not over do it.

[Peregrino]

That's why all my rifle brass gets rotated to plinking rounds after 4-5 reloads and then donated to the "brass gods" during shoot & move drills.

[Buffalobob]

Let us consider four rifles

First

I have a 240 Wby with a 30 inch 1-8 twist barrel that I shoot antelope and small deer with at long range. I load it extremely hot. It is not uncommon for the primer to fall out into the action on extraction on a even a brand new case. Some cases will last a second firing but not many. Obviously my 240 Wby brass never gets work hardened and never needs to be annealed. I seldom shoot this rifle except when hunting so I do not care about the cost of the brass.

Second

I have an elk rifle that is based upon a 338 Lapua case blown out, improved and necked down to 284. The case is two step neck sized down to create a false shoulder, cornmeal fireformed and then fired with a regular charge and bullet. By the time the case is truly chamber dimension it has been seriously work hardened and needs to be annealed. Also when you have invested that much time and effort in building a case you do not wish to lose it from a split neck. Finally, because the cartridge is for long range elk hunting you would like to have consistent and uniform neck tension.

Third

I shoot 1K F-class with a 40X in 308 with a special match chamber cut for the 175 Sierra MK. I use three brands of brass: RWS, Norma and sorted Winchester. RWS brass is hard brass much like Lapua. Norma brass is as always very soft brass and Winchester brass is moderately hard. I use a body bump die for setting the shoulder and a Lee Collet Neck die and a Forster seater. In a given brand, after about four or five firings the necks will get hard enough that I can seat a bullet with just my fingers and/or pull it back out of some of the cases and not others. The necks are not only work hardened but inconsistent. If I was just shooting a deer at 300 yards which is about a 3-4MOA target then this issue of neck tension would not cause me any grief. But at 800 – 1000 yards this will create a lot of vertical dispersion. These cases are the ones in the video being annealed.

Fourth

I have a bone stock Rem 700 in 17 Rem that I have shot for over 30 years. Cases have been reloaded helter skelter with no segregation and no annealing. The ones that split the necks are thrown away and the ones that don’t hold bullets are thrown away. This gun has a chamber that is badly out of alignment with the barrel and a person does not really need to do any kind of precision reloading for it. I could anneal the brass if I wished to, but I can get 8-10 firings from most cases before they are worthless. The gun is not good for shooting much over 300 yards, maybe 400 if there is no wind. The things I shoot at are not really important to hit so there is no big deal if I miss. I have perhaps 500 pieces of brass for it so who cares if I get 8 firings or 18. Even though I am retired and have plenty of time it is not worth my time to anneal this brass because accuracy is not really going to improve with the factory chamber.

Summary

In my mind, if you have a custom rifle with a well made chamber such as minimum SAAMI and a high degree of accuracy is desired such as for long range competition or hunting then it is important to take good care of your brass by watching for signs of neck hardness and inconsistent neck tension and annealing when those signs appear. While not a good scientific test I would say if you can seat or pull bullets with your fingers then your necks are to hard and do not have the correct springiness any more (they are too springy). Also, if you wish to get long life out of your brass it is good to anneal at regular intervals.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

That's why all my rifle brass gets rotated to plinking rounds after 4-5 reloads and then donated to the "brass gods" during shoot & move drills.

PG:

Only four to five firings? Loading them kind of hot are you? He, he, he.

Shoot and move drills eh? I shoot, chuck my gear into my truck and drive it to the next firing line. Comes from being a Mechanized Warrior. Why run when you can walk? Why walk when you can ride? Why shoot something with a 5.56 when you can blast it with an M-2 while sitting?

I donate my worn out brass to some former hippies -- now capitalists -- who are running a reclamation center. They look at the brass and see money and not evil.

As for annealing brass. Yes -- I have done this when forming some .577-500 cases from some .577 basic brass for a double gun. Given that lesson learned, I now tend to not want any chambering that requires anything more than a simple one step sizing process without neck turning etc.

However, this discussion has brought out something new to me. Blowing primers on virgin brass. As if another chambering or cartridge won't kill an animal without blowing the primers? This is truly unique and I am most interested in the logic behind this one.

Gene

[Buffalobob]

The question was raised why a person would load a piece of brass to pressures that would ruin it on the first firing.

Many different philosophies about how to get through life and what makes life interesting. At this point in time in my life, just killing one more defenseless animal is not of much great interest or thrill. So, to provide some degree of challenge and some degree of interest, I try to hunt using methods that cause me to work hard and practice a lot. A small caliber rifle at long range is one of those I challenges I set for myself. It is not for every one but it is what I decided to do and it is what I have done. There are certain benchmarks that few people ever reach such as the 4 minute mile. Less than 10% of knowledgeable hunters will ever kill a big game animal past 800 yards. To my knowledge there are three people still alive who have killed elk at a range past 2,000 yards ( all well known 1K benchrest shooters using some version of a 338).
So when you spend about $5,000 on a rifle and another $5,000 on just optics and another $2,000 on travel and licenses, a piece of brass becomes just as expendable as the powder, primer and bullet. If you shoot even 20 times, what is that cost compared to all the other costs?

The 240 Wby rifle under discussion was built to shoot antelope and small deer at long range. It weighs 16 pounds and I have added 2 pounds of lead to the stock so it weighs 18 pounds. With a 30 inch barrel I can get the 115 Berger to about the max velocity it will tolerate without disintegrating. The only common 6mm cartridge that exceeds the 240 Wby is the 6-06 AI and that is only by maybe 50-100 fps. I am a Weatherby fan so my choice was based upon personal preference. When you shoot antelope at long ranges in Wyoming you fight two issues. First is range finding in the flat sagebrush is really difficult and second the wind is extremely difficult. Not only does the wind blow hard but it is usually swirling and gusty and its behavior in the rolling seemingly flat terrain is hard to predict. So you have three things to do: one- use very high BC bullets such as the Berger VLD, two-get all the speed you can and finally three- try to be patient and not shoot on days when the winds are too bad. High BC fast bullets are more forgiving for both wind and range errors. It is item two that is the logic behind expensive brass becoming an expendable item. I often will wait for two or three days for a calm day and a cooperative antelope before I ever shoot. That is the joy of being retired, I can take my time and concentrate on getting a set up that I like and think will get a good shot made. After sitting on a rise for two or three days with antelope constantly in sight and finally getting the wind to die down, any sane and rational person would be willing to pay a dollar for a shot. I mean really, who cares about the brass, you have waited all year for this opportunity and you got a 4 mph wind from the left and a herd of antelope in position.

So, with that rifle, I have killed antelope at 500 yards, 600 yards, 686 yards, 800 yards, 868 yards and 1140 yards. I have ruined about 200 pieces of brass in the process of load development, trajectory validation and zero checking. It is a small price to pay for the enjoyment I have had.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I love reading BB's posts. A really detailed long range shooter. I don't shoot as often as I want (brain Cancer), but have worked up a very interesting round for my 30-06 while trying to get out to 1600 meters. I have a less than .70" Moa at 100 with a round transonic just past 1300 meters. I am using IMR 4064 with a 240 gr Seirra HPBT match king. (BC .774). very smooth in recoil also. shot from a stock Rem 700.
I just thought I'd pass this one on, I see you like the .270 range of calibers and low weight bullets for speed. I am impressed with your shooting and am just tossing in something here. Heavy and long range. I also shoot 45-110 BPCR in a "Quigley" model 1874 and love it. I can only shoot it when my eye sight is behaving. So far hits at 788Yds. No grouping yet.
Also to keep with this Thread...I don't anneal my brass, but maybe I should.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

The question was raised why a person would load a piece of brass to pressures that would ruin it on the first firing.

Many different philosophies about how to get through life and what makes life interesting. At this point in time in my life, just killing one more defenseless animal is not of much great interest or thrill. So, to provide some degree of challenge and some degree of interest, I try to hunt using methods that cause me to work hard and practice a lot. A small caliber rifle at long range is one of those I challenges I set for myself. It is not for every one but it is what I decided to do and it is what I have done. There are certain benchmarks that few people ever reach such as the 4 minute mile. Less than 10% of knowledgeable hunters will ever kill a big game animal past 800 yards. To my knowledge there are three people still alive who have killed elk at a range past 2,000 yards ( all well known 1K benchrest shooters using some version of a 338).
So when you spend about $5,000 on a rifle and another $5,000 on just optics and another $2,000 on travel and licenses, a piece of brass becomes just as expendable as the powder, primer and bullet. If you shoot even 20 times, what is that cost compared to all the other costs?

The 240 Wby rifle under discussion was built to shoot antelope and small deer at long range. It weighs 16 pounds and I have added 2 pounds of lead to the stock so it weighs 18 pounds. With a 30 inch barrel I can get the 115 Berger to about the max velocity it will tolerate without disintegrating. The only common 6mm cartridge that exceeds the 240 Wby is the 6-06 AI and that is only by maybe 50-100 fps. I am a Weatherby fan so my choice was based upon personal preference. When you shoot antelope at long ranges in Wyoming you fight two issues. First is range finding in the flat sagebrush is really difficult and second the wind is extremely difficult. Not only does the wind blow hard but it is usually swirling and gusty and its behavior in the rolling seemingly flat terrain is hard to predict. So you have three things to do: one- use very high BC bullets such as the Berger VLD, two-get all the speed you can and finally three- try to be patient and not shoot on days when the winds are too bad. High BC fast bullets are more forgiving for both wind and range errors. It is item two that is the logic behind expensive brass becoming an expendable item. I often will wait for two or three days for a calm day and a cooperative antelope before I ever shoot. That is the joy of being retired, I can take my time and concentrate on getting a set up that I like and think will get a good shot made. After sitting on a rise for two or three days with antelope constantly in sight and finally getting the wind to die down, any sane and rational person would be willing to pay a dollar for a shot. I mean really, who cares about the brass, you have waited all year for this opportunity and you got a 4 mph wind from the left and a herd of antelope in position.

So, with that rifle, I have killed antelope at 500 yards, 600 yards, 686 yards, 800 yards, 868 yards and 1140 yards. I have ruined about 200 pieces of brass in the process of load development, trajectory validation and zero checking. It is a small price to pay for the enjoyment I have had.

BB:

Man -- you must be independently wealthy to destroy Weatherby brass on the first shot.

He, he, he.

Gene

[Buffalobob]

RW Hart makes a gizmo that you beat with a hammer that has fairly good results in fixing loose primer pockets. It does not make them like new but from what people say if you pound them pretty hard you can get a few more firings out of most cases. I have been thinking about buying one.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=339607

Of course for belted cases when you have blown the primer pocket you often have expanded the case right at the belt and Larry Willis down in Florida makes a gizmo for that. I also make a version for myself by cutting in half a full length die and grinding a little off the base so it will size all the way to the belt.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

RW Hart makes a gizmo that you beat with a hammer that has fairly good results in fixing loose primer pockets. It does not make them like new but from what people say if you pound them pretty hard you can get a few more firings out of most cases. I have been thinking about buying one.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=339607

Of course for belted cases when you have blown the primer pocket you often have expanded the case right at the belt and Larry Willis down in Florida makes a gizmo for that. I also make a version for myself by cutting in half a full length die and grinding a little off the base so it will size all the way to the belt.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

BB:

Never even knew anyone made such a thing. I probably wouldn't get one but it is fascinating what reloading guys come up with.

Sounds like your long range hunting rifle is pretty solid. Heavy enough anyway. He, he, he.

Quad Lock?

Gene

[Medula Oblongata]

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

This article has much more information than I could hope to convey.

I personally anneal each case after each firing for several calibers that I own. I do this because the brass is either hard to find, or because I've had to form it from another parent case (such as when I form .284 WIN brass to 7.5x55 Swiss); for example my .378 Weatherby (belted magnum) brass is quite expensive, so I need it to last as long as possible.

I have about 200 pieces of Norma 7.5x55 Swiss brass that I've shot upwards of 60x; they're still in good condition, and the primer pockets are tight. Now I shoot relatively light loads with them as all I'm doing is 300M precision shooting with Iron Sights in Swiss Match, so all I need is for the bullet to get to the target.

I don't own an M14 or M1A; so I have no idea what the chambers are like or what they do to the brass, but I do have a G-3 that's terrible on brass because of the chamber flutes. I get about 3 firings out of them before they're trash; consequently I don't shoot it much anymore because getting components is nigh impossible.

-Ryan