Dems furious over Libby's commutation

[82ndtrooper]

As could easily be predicted the dems are furious this morning over the Presidents descision to commute the 2.5 year jail sentence of Scooter Libby. Gee, Imagine that ?

One democrat this morning on CNBC compaired the Paris Hilton jail term to Scooter Libby. How much more of this oral vomit can the Americans stand ? I can smell their puke all the way here in Kentucky.

Here's my personal thoughts: Valerie Plame was about as "covert" as someone waving a flag out their apartment window with an CIA emblem blowing in the wind. She did in fact work as a covered operative under the Bruster Jennings Inc cover in Europe, however she was terminated from her posistion and brought back to work in a cubicle at Langley along with her daily Mocca Latte from the campus cafeteria at the time that her name was mentioned, or not mentioned by someone within the executive branch of the POTUS. I believe an anonymous agent was quoted in the National Review as "having been so poor with her trade craft that she was suited better at Langley than being part of the counter proliferation ops under the Bruster Jennings Inc cover"

Joe Wilson, an outspoken critic of the Presidents foreign policy and decision to invade Iraq was her husbund who for some incredibly odd reason was sent to Africa to investigate the import and or manufacture of "Yello Cake" Why was he sent and who made this decision ? Again, Valerie Plame was already not a consideration, so her husbund was chosen. Why ?

In my personal opinion there was never any "Outing" of Valerie Plame as a covert operative with the agency. The democrats, lead by Joe Wilson made this a two year investigation with congressional hearings and a heap of coverage over the MSM as some sort of major crime. Maybe it was, maybe it was not. I dont give a hoot about some lady working at Langley in a cubicle. Since when do real operatives actually get a cubicle at Langley ? I'll tell ya. When they have lost respect from their peers within the clandistine service of the agency. Just ask Bob Baer he's now written two books that are clearly out of his own anger for being drawn from the field for poor trade craft and rogue decisions. He's had an axe to grind with the agency since he was let go.

Scotter Libby is only one man that the President has commuted his sentence. I think it's a good kick in the balls to the democrats for spending the Americans tax payers dollars for yet another poke at the administration.

Whether you agree or disagree with me you have to remember that Bill Clinton pardoned 173 individuals on his LAST OFFICIAL DAY as President. He pardoned Bill Rich, a billionaire who fled the country to avoid being prosecuted for major tax evasion charges. By the way, his wife was suspected as another of Bill Clintons "side strokes" If Hillary wants to raise taxes, then let her collect the back owed taxes from Bill Rich, who her husbund pardoned on his last hour of service in the Oval Office. Hillary has already voiced her disgust with the commutation of Scooter Libby. Did she forget the 173 individuals that her husbund pardoned ? I'd like to know what crimes each and every one of those 173 had been charged with.

I suggest that President Bush just pardone him altogether. That's another good kick in the nuts for the democrats.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287790,00.html

[Ret10Echo]

Gee, President Bush is the first to EVER do this....not!


http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons6b.htm

[The Reaper]

Klinton appears to have had a real issue with courts martial.

He pardoned people all the way back to 1891. Wonder if they were still being held?

I noticed his brother got a pardon for his cocaine dealing, his Whitewater pals got excused, as did his convicted cabinet members. Lots of pardons for Arkansas residents, too.

Hmm, they weren't complaining then.

TR

[incommin]

It is always a matter of who's ox is getting gored...... all things are political these days. Integrity and selfless service is lacking on both sides of the isles in DC.

Jim

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by incommin

It is always a matter of who's ox is getting gored...... all things are political these days. Integrity and selfless service is lacking on both sides of the isles in DC.

Jim

Your certainly correct in your statment and cannot disagree with you.

However, if you listen to a liberal Bush hater, you'd think that this was the first time a President has commuted a sentence in the history of all Presidents that have served our country. The younger generation, deeply rooted with left ideology, seems to be brainwashed to the point that in the face of facts and acts of corruption that Bill Clinton could not have possibly pardoned persons such as Bill Rich, a large campaign contributor, a wife that was rumored to have been another of Clintons bed buddys, and major tax evasion, the very initiative that liberal democrats want so badly to raise if they are elected.............TAXES.

Valerie Plames husbund was just on CNBC and he said "The Presidents act of commuting Scooter Libby's sentence is a sign that even he may have obstucted justice" ..............What ?

What was and is the fascination with Bill Klinton and his Presidency to these crack pots ?

If I saw Bill Klinton trip into a busy city street in front of a bus I would take pictures and then walk the other direction. I've actually thought of purchasing Bill Klintons autobiography and using every page as toilet paper and filming it to put on UTUBE.

[x-factor]

I don't want to get into a political debate. With regards to this post:
- Criticizing Bush in this instance has nothing to do with excusing what other Presidents have done.
- Criticizing Bush for the pardon does not mean that Wilson didn't have his own agenda or that he's right about any of the Iraq stuff.
- Criticizing Bush for this pardon is criticizing Bush for completely disrespecting the level of the crime committed here and the seriousness of the potential consequences.

Libby (among others) should swing for the Plame thing. You don't ever mess with cover. Ever. Period. Never. Ever. Never... Sometimes? No really, never. But what if her hus-? NO, NEVER.

There is no "well, she's undercover but not really." If she's undercover, then she's undercover and you protect that because its about more than just her career. I don't care what her husband said or did.

A smart counter-intel analyst can potentially take that one little piece of information (her identity) and track Plame back to her sources, her coworkers, any issues she worked, etc. There's a possibility that someone got a bullet in their head as a result of this whole fiasco. Not to mention the fact that it becomes harder to recruit sources when they think they could eventually be exposed to their internal security ministry by someone's silly political agenda back in DC.

82nd...You're a good guy and you're entitled to your opinion, but you don't know what you're talking about in this case. People in every intel agency rotate between field and headquarters assignments all the time. Its the same way military officers rotate between staff jobs and field commands as they move up the chain. You misunderstood Baer's books if you think having a job in DC necessarily means you're a do-nothing.

[The Reaper]

I think that if you are going to be permitted your position, you have to permit those who disagree with you to have theirs.

Are you saying that Libby leaked Plame's name? I thought that was Armitage, over at State? What did Libby really do to get 30 months? For that matter, I think Plame's husband did more to out her and jeopardize national security than anyone else has. Has he been charged?

It is extremely ironic that those who found no fault with Billy Boy pardoning familiy members who were drug dealers, college buddies, business associates, cabinet members, tax dodgers, criminals who had fled the country, campaign donors, etc. are upset about this pardon. At least Libby didn't buy his commutation (not pardon).

Hillary's brother, Hugh Rodham, collected $400,000 from two serious criminals who got pardons. When the news of the payments broke, the Clintons claimed surprise and demanded Rodham give the money back.

The former wife of disgraced financier Marc Rich gave $450,000 to Clinton's presidential library and raised and contributed more than $1 million to campaigns of the Clintons and other Democrats. Her husband, who had fled the country rather than fight charges of massive tax fraud and trading with Iran during the 1979 hostage crisis, suddenly received a pardon. "Utterly false," Bill Clinton later said about charges he sold the pardon. "There was absolutely no quid pro quo." Yeah, right.

Kind of like the dismissals of politically apppinted Federal Attorneys deemed to be sub-standard is a huge issue after the Klintons fired not only every prosecutor, INCLUDING the ones investigating them, but salaried workers like the WH Travel Office as well.

Why the sudden moral outrage when these are the perqs of the office holder and the previous administration set such a dismal record that it is unlikely the current one will ever be able to reach their degree of self-service, cronyism, criminality, and political shenanigans?

TR

[x-factor]

When did I say he wasn't entitled to his position? I said exactly the opposite. My point regarding 82nd was that he's basing his position at least partially on an inaccurate understanding of the facts.

Are you saying that Libby leaked Plame's name? I thought that was Armitage, over at State? What did Libby really do to get 30 months?

I like Armitage alot, but he should have been charged too. As for Libby, he participated (either as a principle or accessory, either before or after) in the crime.

Like I said, you don't mess with cover. Ever.

For that matter, I think Plame's husband did more to out her and jeopardize national security than anyone else has. Has he been charged?

If there's a charge that can be made, then charge him, but thats not what I was addressing. I'm talking only about the issue of violating cover protections, which is a completely non-partisan question.


As a constitutional issue, the pardon/commute power was meant to protect the independence of the executive branch by providing a counter to politicized criminal legislation and/or excessive judicial inquests. Its been long since corrupted (historically speaking, Clinton wasn't the first or the worst on either side) into a tool for crass quid pro quo exchanges and to resurrect stooges who take the bullet for their superiors in ethics investigations.

[Ret10Echo]

But he was not sentenced for the actual wrong that started the whole thing but for lying to the grand jury. So the act of disclosing the information remains basically unpunished not only in the case of Libby but all the others who were initially looked at for disclosing the same information.


http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-s...memo052507.pdf

A portion of the qutoed section of the U.S. code:

(a) Factors To Be Considered in Imposing a Sentence.— The court shall impose a sentence sufficient, but not greater than necessary, to comply with the purposes set forth in paragraph (2) of this subsection. The court, in determining the particular sentence to be imposed, shall consider—
(1) the nature and circumstances of the offense and the history and characteristics of the defendant;
(2) the need for the sentence imposed—
(A) to reflect the seriousness of the offense, to promote respect for the law, and to provide just punishment for the offense;
(B) to afford adequate deterrence to criminal conduct;
(C) to protect the public from further crimes of the defendant; and
(D) to provide the defendant with needed educational or vocational training, medical care, or other correctional treatment in the most effective manner;


This entire event does nothing but further erode the public opion of those in government.....all party affiliation aside.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

It is extremely ironic that those who found no fault with Billy Boy pardoning familiy members who were drug dealers, business associates, cabinet members, tax dodgers, criminals who had fled the country, campaign donors, etc. are upset about this pardon. TR

I agree, but I find it just as ironic that the people that are alright with Libby's sentence being commuted, wanted to hang Clinton. In my opinion, they are both lawyers, who knew the ramifications of perguring themselves, but both thought they could get away with it. Either pergury is wrong or it isn't. You can't have it both ways, depending on who is involved.

I liken it to saying to my children that lying is wrong and will get you punished, but.... sometimes it is alright depending on who you are lying to, and what for.

Both political parties need to get off the whole "it's alright when we do it, but it is wrong if the other party does" All presidents pardon, all commute sentences. Some of the American people will agree with the reasons, while others will not. That will never change the process, unless we the people justify our outrage without casting "political" stones. If it is okay for one party it should be okay for another, if it is bad for one party, it should be bad for the other.

[rubberneck]

Originally Posted by afchic

I agree, but I find it just as ironic that the people that are alright with Libby's sentence being commuted, wanted to hang Clinton. In my opinion, they are both lawyers, who knew the ramifications of perguring themselves, but both thought they could get away with it. Either pergury is wrong or it isn't. You can't have it both ways, depending on who is involved.

I liken it to saying to my children that lying is wrong and will get you punished, but.... sometimes it is alright depending on who you are lying to, and what for.

Both political parties need to get off the whole "it's alright when we do it, but it is wrong if the other party does" All presidents pardon, all commute sentences. Some of the American people will agree with the reasons, while others will not. That will never change the process, unless we the people justify our outrage without casting "political" stones. If it is okay for one party it should be okay for another, if it is bad for one party, it should be bad for the other.

I think you are missing the point. Scooter Libby did not get off scott free. He is still a convicted felon. He still lost his law license. He still has $250,000 in fines to pay. He still is on probation for two years. And finally his good name has been destroyed (by his own hand).

That may not be enough for some but it seems pretty steep price to pay for lying about a crime that never existed in the first place. It is even steeper when you contrast the punishment received by the original source of the leak. Nada, zippo, zilch. Also keep in mind that under oath Robert Wilson perjured himself when he said he could not remember who submitted his name to the White House. How the hell do you forget that you wife was responsible for that? What was his punishment for lying under oath?

That is where the proportionality of the commutation comes in. If the original source of the leak is looking at 25 years in the federal pen than and Joe Wilson was looking at a perjury conviction than I would be pretty pissed that Scooter got a good deal. That isn't the case here. YMMV.

[Shar]

Originally Posted by rubberneck

Also keep in mind that under oath Robert Wilson perjured himself when he said he could not remember who submitted his name to the White House. How the hell do you forget that you wife was responsible for that? What was his punishment for lying under oath?

The best punishment to give Robert Wilson would be forbidding him from appearing on the talk show circuit, giving interviews, etc. I honestly think he's continuing to fuel this whole thing because the man just likes to see his face on TV and hear himself speak. IMHO his wife has gotten completely lost in the shuffle because he's made this all about him.

Clearly lying under oath is a bad thing, and I wouldn't be happy if Bush had pardoned Libby outright. But let's compare this to any other lying under oath verdict... 30 months was steep. When Martha got 5 months in jail the talking heads all thought it was a serious miscarriage of justice and an incredibly harsh sentence... 30 months is a bit longer than 5 months.

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by x-factor

I don't want to get into a political debate. With regards to this post:
- Criticizing Bush in this instance has nothing to do with excusing what other Presidents have done.
- Criticizing Bush for the pardon does not mean that Wilson didn't have his own agenda or that he's right about any of the Iraq stuff.
- Criticizing Bush for this pardon is criticizing Bush for completely disrespecting the level of the crime committed here and the seriousness of the potential consequences.

Libby (among others) should swing for the Plame thing. You don't ever mess with cover. Ever. Period. Never. Ever. Never... Sometimes? No really, never. But what if her hus-? NO, NEVER.

There is no "well, she's undercover but not really." If she's undercover, then she's undercover and you protect that because its about more than just her career. I don't care what her husband said or did.

A smart counter-intel analyst can potentially take that one little piece of information (her identity) and track Plame back to her sources, her coworkers, any issues she worked, etc. There's a possibility that someone got a bullet in their head as a result of this whole fiasco. Not to mention the fact that it becomes harder to recruit sources when they think they could eventually be exposed to their internal security ministry by someone's silly political agenda back in DC.

82nd...You're a good guy and you're entitled to your opinion, but you don't know what you're talking about in this case. People in every intel agency rotate between field and headquarters assignments all the time. Its the same way military officers rotate between staff jobs and field commands as they move up the chain. You misunderstood Baer's books if you think having a job in DC necessarily means you're a do-nothing.

Bob Baer got stuck with a desk job at Langley HQ. Why ? if you listen to him, you'd believe that the Agency routed him out of his position with the clandestine service. I'll take a guess and say that if your a covered operative and suddenly find your self lacking in overseas assignments, you might not be on the invitation list to the next mixer. Bobs book "Sleeping with the Devil" is fairly written and any discussion of the text of the book would require more than this forum and merely a thread, especially with individuals that understand the complexities of the middle east far beyond myself and others here. What I will give Mr. Baer is a pat on the back for his years of self sacrifice to this country, but I wont be purchasing another of his books. He's lock step with left and I'm lock step with the right. I'm certain Mr. Baer participated in many activities in the middle east that he now references as *corruption* in both of his best sellers. It's been convenient during the last 6 and half years for Mr. Baer to start to open his mouth through a type writer.

TR reached the thread before I could comment, but he has broken the bottle already on the possiblility that Joe Wilson himself was a larger part of his wifes dilemma than Libby or Armitage. I still want to know why he was chosen to for the trip to Africa. Was he paid as a "Blue Badger" ? Was his wife instrumental in this choice ? For the life of me I cannot see any reasonable answer to as why he was the chosen one for that trip.

Some time ago someone here said this "Her tradecraft was lousy" Perhaps her husbunds bafoonery was intentional. Remember, they wanted the President, and for an impeachment. Instead they go Scooter and now he's commuted of his jail time.

As for cover and Valerie Plame, I would not purport to understand any activities of agents with the Central Intelligence Agency. And I do not watch James Bond movies as a tutorial for their activities. But something about her and her status has alway's bothered me from the start of the entire drama that the left and the democrats in congress made it out to be. She had spent the last six years prior to her supposed "outing" at Langley without any overseas assignments. 6 years is a long time to sit in Va when your trained to develope assets. I guess she cold called them through a secure line.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Klinton appears to have had a real issue with courts martial.

He pardoned people all the way back to 1891. Wonder if they were still being held?

I noticed his brother got a pardon for his cocaine dealing, his Whitewater pals got excused, as did his convicted cabinet members. Lots of pardons for Arkansas residents, too.

Hmm, they weren't complaining then.

TR

Sir,

Now those who are "liberal" and claim the middle of the road, SHOULD look at their party's track record. Just my .02, whaterever.

I cannot believe that Klinton is even a consideration for them? Don't they realize that she is a divisor among their party...not a uniter?

Holly

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by afchic

I agree, but I find it just as ironic that the people that are alright with Libby's sentence being commuted, wanted to hang Clinton. In my opinion, they are both lawyers, who knew the ramifications of perguring themselves, but both thought they could get away with it. Either pergury is wrong or it isn't. You can't have it both ways, depending on who is involved.

I liken it to saying to my children that lying is wrong and will get you punished, but.... sometimes it is alright depending on who you are lying to, and what for.

Both political parties need to get off the whole "it's alright when we do it, but it is wrong if the other party does" All presidents pardon, all commute sentences. Some of the American people will agree with the reasons, while others will not. That will never change the process, unless we the people justify our outrage without casting "political" stones. If it is okay for one party it should be okay for another, if it is bad for one party, it should be bad for the other.

Let me put it this way.

I would be okay with letting my kids play at Scooter Libby's house as a convicted liar who got out of his jail time.

I would NOT let them visit most of the PARDONED felons on Klinton's list, even under armed surveillance.

If you look at his conviction and punishment for perjury (even without the commuted jail sentence), it makes me wonder how many years Bill and Hill should be facing right now, as two of the biggest liars, deniers, fabricators, prevaricators, and parsers in the business. And yet when they wrote their books, their memories were restored. Curious how that works.

TR