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M4 25M Zero Target For Iron Sights
Old 03-26-2007, 18:00   #1
NousDefionsDoc
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M4 25M Zero Target For Iron Sights

Anybody got one in pdf or something similar?
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Old 03-26-2007, 18:59   #2
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http://www.thetacticalsolution.com/d...ero_target.pdf

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Old 03-26-2007, 21:09   #3
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Many thanks.
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Old 03-27-2007, 12:45   #4
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Gentlemen, do you know of a technique for using this target to zero or confirm zero for an M4 using a CCO or Eotech?

Many thanks.
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Zero
Old 03-27-2007, 15:10   #5
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Zero

Quote:
Originally Posted by jatx
Gentlemen, do you know of a technique for using this target to zero or confirm zero for an M4 using a CCO or Eotech?

Many thanks.
Same question I had. I use the Aimpont Compm2 2MOA. It's parallax free so it's never been a true zero, but under 25 meters I'm only trying to hit what I can see when plinking.

Thanks for the link Team Sergeant. I need this for my new builds.
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Old 03-27-2007, 16:24   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jatx
Gentlemen, do you know of a technique for using this target to zero or confirm zero for an M4 using a CCO or Eotech?

Many thanks.
EOTEC, IMO is for work 200 to zero meters. A weapons zero depends on your "working" preference.

Tell me what's the bullet drop from zero to 100 meters?

100 to 200?
200 to 300?

It also depends on what model weapon and what you're feeding it.
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Old 03-27-2007, 17:33   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
EOTEC, IMO is for work 200 to zero meters. A weapons zero depends on your "working" preference.

Tell me what's the bullet drop from zero to 100 meters?

100 to 200?
200 to 300?

It also depends on what model weapon and what you're feeding it.
I am using M855 or its moral equivalent, which clocks about 2860 fps out of a 14.5" barrel. Using the JBM online calculator and a 300 yard zero, I estimate bullet drop as:

0-100 4.3 inches
100-200 4.3 + 1.7 inches = 6.0 inches
200-300 0 inches

A 200 yard zero would yield the following:

0-100 1.3 inches
100-200 0 inches

Others may get different results, but I am compensating for the POF Predator rail placing my reticle about 3 inches above bore axis.

While I understand your point about the Eotech, I've had no problem getting good hits with mine out past 300. The way I look at it, the center dot (1.5 MOA) is smaller in diameter than my FSP, so it obstructs less of the target at 300 yards than the iron sights on which I originally qualified.

If I were to use this target for a 300 yard zero and the rifle mentioned above, my inclination would be to hold a dot low from center mass. Since the Eotech's center dot is roughly 4.5 inches in diameter at 300 yards, that means my POI would be within 1 MOA of my POA at all distances <300 yards.

Am I thinking about this right?
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Old 03-27-2007, 18:20   #8
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I have shot head sized balloons well past the 200-300 meter range , using an Eotec. They appeared to be about the same size, if not smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. These were far enough out that if you took your eye off of it you would have trouble re-acquiring it!! (I HAVE WITNESSES, I did it more than once, and the witness is not Air.177!!! )

Later
Martin
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Old 03-27-2007, 19:17   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jatx
0-100 4.3 inches
100-200 4.3 + 1.7 inches = 6.0 inches
200-300 0 inches

A 200 yard zero would yield the following:

0-100 1.3 inches
100-200 0 inches
So where in there are you expecting to be working?

If you say "all ranges" then welcome to the party. This is why you need to know the bullet drop and the range before you engage a target. It also depends on how surgical are your requirments.

Me, I'd zero it at 100 and remember not to shoot any higher than the nose at close targets.
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Old 03-27-2007, 19:33   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
Me, I'd zero it at 100 and remember not to shoot any higher than the nose at close targets.
Thanks for the advice TS.

With my civilian weapon, I don't realistically expect to ever need to take a shot beyond 100 yards. With my issue weapon, who knows? My goal at any range is a solid CNS hit that will rapidly incapacitate even if the round fails to fully fragment.
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Old 03-27-2007, 21:17   #11
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C'mon guys - try the following search string:

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...or+Iron+Sights

It gives you access to a lot of relevant info. In fact it'll connect you to the answers for most of the current questions.

NDD - FWIW I've seen a different 25M Zero target for the M4. It was not the same as the M16A2 target. The squares are not the same size and the aim point is different. You can use (everybody does mostly because they don't know any better) the M16A2 target; it doesn't make any difference except for the clicks to adjust and the POI (elevation - not critical at <150M especially with M68s/Eotechs). I've been looking for an M4 .pdf but haven't found one yet. The manual I've been able to access doesn't have the targets. I'll keep looking. Peregrino
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Old 03-27-2007, 21:17   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
So where in there are you expecting to be working?
If you say "all ranges" then welcome to the party. This is why you need to know the bullet drop and the range before you engage a target. It also depends on how surgical are your requirments. Me, I'd zero it at 100 and remember not to shoot any higher than the nose at close targets.
TS:

I find it much easier to know the ordinate given a 300 elevation. About 6" at 160 meters. Go from there with holds until a fellow is under 30 meters and then it is either point of aim or hold about 3 inches higher than the impact location.

I spent a couple of hours on a KD range trying to figure out a true reduced 300yard zero. Closest I got was about 33 yards. I also shot two targets to show trajectory. Zeroed up at 300 pretty solid then shot the targets at 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 160, and 200 as a graphic representation of trajectory of M-855 ball fired from a carbine.

Was pretty neat and if one has not done such a actual test, he will be very surprised at the results. Not what one would envision. It also provides a good challenge to those who are anal about shot placement as there is not a real big vertical spread so basically center hold is just fine from a barrel to 300.

Gene
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Old 03-27-2007, 21:39   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Econ
TS:

I find it much easier to know the ordinate given a 300 elevation. About 6" at 160 meters. Go from there with holds until a fellow is under 30 meters and then it is either point of aim or hold about 3 inches higher than the impact location.

I spent a couple of hours on a KD range trying to figure out a true reduced 300yard zero. Closest I got was about 33 yards. I also shot two targets to show trajectory. Zeroed up at 300 pretty solid then shot the targets at 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 160, and 200 as a graphic representation of trajectory of M-855 ball fired from a carbine.

Was pretty neat and if one has not done such a actual test, he will be very surprised at the results. Not what one would envision. It also provides a good challenge to those who are anal about shot placement as there is not a real big vertical spread so basically center hold is just fine from a barrel to 300.

Gene
Can you post the target, sketch the POIs, or describe the rise/drop from the various zeros?

TR
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Old 03-27-2007, 21:44   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Econ
TS:

I find it much easier to know the ordinate given a 300 elevation. About 6" at 160 meters. Go from there with holds until a fellow is under 30 meters and then it is either point of aim or hold about 3 inches higher than the impact location.

I spent a couple of hours on a KD range trying to figure out a true reduced 300yard zero. Closest I got was about 33 yards. I also shot two targets to show trajectory. Zeroed up at 300 pretty solid then shot the targets at 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 160, and 200 as a graphic representation of trajectory of M-855 ball fired from a carbine.

Was pretty neat and if one has not done such a actual test, he will be very surprised at the results. Not what one would envision. It also provides a good challenge to those who are anal about shot placement as there is not a real big vertical spread so basically center hold is just fine from a barrel to 300.

Gene

Gene, are you familiar with the term "cone of accuracy" (I think that is the right term). It set a shooter up that between two ranges, the bullet will hit within a circle of a certain size diameter. Sort of saying what you are saying, If you shoot at center, your bullet will be in the kill zone. It maybe not be surgical or accurate enough for very long shots.

Basically the rifle is sighted in at center at a set distance, lets say 243 M. That from muzzle to 350 M the bullet will be within a 6 inch circle(cone) anywhere between those two ranges. For a hunter it takes range estimation out of the equation with in those distances.

H.
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Old 03-27-2007, 22:00   #15
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Hollis - The term/concept you are looking for is "point blank range" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-blank_range). Your "cone of accuracy" is another descriptor for "circle of probable error" and is just one of the factors in the study of external ballistics. I'm sure LR1947 or GE have a couple of lectures laying aroung they can dust off and entertain us with - personally I'm not typing that much again unless somebody is paying me . Peregrino
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