MoH vs Silver Star?

Rumblyguts · 12-15-2006, 11:10

With the recent awarding of the Silver Star to Pfc. McGiniss,* I’m quite confused about how the higher medals of valor are given out and am trying to get a grasp in my mind how this private is awarded the Silver Star while one other (Cpl. Dunham**) received the MoH for the same actions (PO2 Mansoor’s*** is in the pipeline).

Medal of Honor: The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades and must have involved risk of life. Incontestable proof of the performance of the service will be exacted and each recommendation for the award of this decoration will be considered on the standard of extraordinary merit.

Approx. 3,400 awarded with only 4 in recent history

DSC: The act or acts of heroism must have been so notable and have involved risk of life so extraordinary as to set the individual apart from his or her comrades.

Approx. 12,000 awarded with only 4 in recent history (Wikki source, sorry folks)

DSM: distinguished himself or herself by exceptionally meritorious service to the Government in a duty of great responsibility. The performance must be such as to merit recognition for service which is clearly exceptional. Exceptional performance of normal duty will not alone justify an award of this decoration.

Silver Star: The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction.

Source: americal.org/awards

I have very limited experience, but to me it would seem that the Pvt. should be in line for the MoH according to recent awards. However, I could see the DSC as an appropriate award as well.

To me the distinction is not the matter of being fatally wounded, but the overall contribution of the action. Take the awards of Shughart and Gordon who had time to think about their actions and the effects upon the battlefield and at home, yet still volunteered to essentially die in place. Their actions saved one man’s life and had many enemy KIA/WIA. To me, their impact was greater than one man instinctively falling on a grenade to save his brothers-in-arms. (My apologies if I’m misrepresenting the men, the facts, or opening old wounds.)

Take the account of SFC. Smith who may not have thought about his own mortality, but had ample chance to quit the fight. His great leadership and personal combat helped save 100’s of soldiers and prisoners. Again, this impact is greater than one man falling on a grenade to save his comrades.

Both PO2 Mansoor and Cpl. Dunham instinctively threw themselves on a grenade to save their comrades. Please PLEASE do not think that I am trying to belittle these men’s actions! They are both deserving of the highest awards, but in my mind, their actions weren’t as great as the others already mentioned. DSC quality? Definitely! MoH quality? Probably. However, were the actions of these 2 deserving of the Silver Star like Pfc. McGiniss? Definitely not!

So where is the disconnect? That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

Is it that Pfc. McGiniss’s review board just had their heads up their 4th point?
Was the board starting an agenda of trying to change the value of some awards?
Was the AAR just not eloquent enough?
Should the DSC be used in such cases?
Should the MoH be given out for actions greater than dieing while saving a handful as opposed to incredible military feats? Or is the current awarding appropriate?
How does mortality of the recipient factor in?
Should the impact upon a battle be factored in?
What pieces of the puzzle am I missing?
How does one correct what seems to be an error in the level of an award? (I’m assuming it’d be a letter to one’s government in my case as a civi)

Eh, essentially I’m frustrated that Pfc. McGinnis only got the Silver Star and am trying to figure out why it happened and what can be done about it. I know that there many books out there dealing with the subject, but I'm at work and this awarding of the Silver Star has gotten me riled up without an outlet. I tried to find a similar thread, and am sure that it exists, but damned if I can trigger it through the search.

I’d also like to point people to WM’s post**** citing Kinny’s speech to Congress regarding awards of valor. There are some good suggestions and accounts there as well.

Thanks for any input,
Bill

Other links:
* http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...ad.php?t=12752
** http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...ad.php?t=12499
*** http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...ad.php?t=12200
**** http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...ad.php?t=12669

**Airbornelawyer** · 12-15-2006, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumblyguts

Approx. 12,000 awarded with only 4 in recent history (Wikki source, sorry folks)

"Sorry folks"? I wrote the section of that Wikipedia article that covers awards of the DSC.

Rumblyguts · 12-15-2006, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer

"Sorry folks"? I wrote the section of that Wikipedia article that covers awards of the DSC.

:blush:

Good thing I have a small foot or I might be missing some teeth....

Its just that erm, I really wouldn't want to base an entire paper on wikki...

No offense meant!
(what's your favorite intoxicating beverage?

)

**The Reaper** · 12-15-2006, 13:38

IIRC, Mansoor did not leap on a grenade.

He took his helmet off and covered the grenade with it. In fact, if he had not laid on top of the K pot, thus creating a BIG blunt trauma to his chest, he might have survived. Rumor was, he had already asked his buddies if they thought that technique would work, so he had done some thinking on it.

There is no rhyme or reason to why some awards are different than others. IMHNSO, part of it is what happened, part is who it was, part is who submits it, and another portion is who approves it. It is also hard to compare actions, regardless of how similar they may seem to be.

There is no laundry list of actions for any particular award. A Silver Star in one instance may not have warranted an ARCOM with a V Device in another. And the Civil War MoHs awards are mostly bogus. It was the only valor award the military had at that point.

TR

soldierdoc_2005 · 12-15-2006, 14:06

I don't wish to be insulting, condescending, or preachy, but I find this thread a little disingenuous.

The three SM's performed gallantly, with little regard for their own well-being, in a final act to protect their buddies.

Whether they died in complete anonyminity, or with great fan-fare, their actions at the moment of truth define them, not the hardware presented to them.

VR

~Eric

Rumblyguts · 12-15-2006, 14:40

TR:
Thanks for your info. (edit: I had read that the grenade hit his chest and he fell on it). That goes to filling that huge gap of "what I don't know" and helps me sort things out in my mind.

Soldierdoc:
I'm not taking any offense, and apreciate your thoughts and feedback. I completely agree that its the man and not the medal. In the end, they are true heroes. What is under my skin is the aparent similarity in actions, yet very differnt judgments (and places in history) that the varied awards bring. It just seems like an injustice.

As for being disingenuous (had to look it up), about all I know of awards and the process is roughly 45 minutes of web browsing. Like I said in the original post, I don't know much; especially about the awarding process, board, combat, nor what really happened. TR helped with some of his scuttlebut.

Cheers,
Bill

incommin · 12-15-2006, 15:21

Now that the subject has come up, I have wondered for years how a naval LT gets a medal for turning around and picking up a person who fell out of his boat and helo pilots flew into hot LZ's for months on end to pickup up teams or wounded soldiers and they got a hand shake.

There is no rhyme or reason......

Jim

Warrior-Mentor · 12-15-2006, 16:37

IMHO Awards at that level reach the political realm.

I know an LTC (SF) who was told that if he was ijured, there's a good hance he'd have been awarded the MoH vicethe DSC. He's very modest about the whole thing...("I was just doing my job...you'd have done the same given that stuation.") Look him in the eye and you can tell he means it. He's that humble about it.

It's not unheard of for awards to get upgraded years later based on a lobby of friends, family, or action group to the politicians. One example was the award of an MoH to an African American for action in WWII. Someone applied the common sense test and said "You can't tell me that out of all the African Americans that served in WWII, not ONE had actions that merited the MoH?" The concluded something wasn't right (the climate back then), reviewed the awards for valor back then and upgraded a valor recipient to MoH. I saw the details on 60 minutes IIRC a couple years ago. I apologze, his name escapes me.

EDITED TO ADD: http://www.cnn.com/US/9701/13/medal/
Link courtesy of another ps member's google-fu.

The political climate drives much of this. Politics both in and out of the military.

Some senior officers pride themselves on the lack of awards they approve. "I only awrded it to guys I'M sure earned it." Good to be sure...but don't you trust the commanders that are making recommendations to you?

The flip side is also not desirable... handing out awards like candy...which clearly denigrates the awards.

Like anything in llife, balance is the key.

Radar Rider · 12-15-2006, 17:54

Seven MOHs were presented after the review of WWII actions; only 1LT Vernon Baker was living at time of the presentation in 1997.

WWII Arican American MOH Recipients

**Team Sergeant** · 12-15-2006, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer

"Sorry folks"? I wrote the section of that Wikipedia article that covers awards of the DSC.

AL,

I don't believe in Wikipedia at all.

I actually tried to get the idiots that wrote the page for the "US Army Special Forces" to make changes, not one replied. They even have Professionalsoldiers.com as a reference for the webpage. Some of the other Special Forces pages have been written by kids playing "Spec Ops" games and airsofters. They can keep their website and cater to those children that read it.

Anyone can write for Wikipedia if they have internet access.

I believe your page is fine, until some child decides to re-write what you have done.

TS

Monsoon65 · 12-15-2006, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

It's not unheard of for awards to get upgraded years later based on a lobby of friends, family, or action group to the politicians...

I've read they are trying to get Maj Richard Winters DSC from Normandy upgraded to a Medal of Honor. I know they upgraded William H. Pitsenbarger's Air Force Cross to the Medal of Honor in 2000, I believe.

Sometimes I scratch my head when I hear about how some get their awards. An LTC in one of the squadrons was given a Bronze Star for merit for a butt load of work he did in Afghanistan. From how the citation read, he really deserved it. A Captain receive one for "combat operations in Qatar" at the beginning of OIF, which had me lean over to my friend next to me and ask if I missed anything, since we were both in Qatar and the only thing I "combated" was boredom.

**Airbornelawyer** · 12-15-2006, 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

AL,

I don't believe in Wikipedia at all.

I actually tried to get the idiots that wrote the page for the "US Army Special Forces" to make changes, not one replied. They even have Professionalsoldiers.com as a reference for the webpage. Some of the other Special Forces pages have been written by kids playing "Spec Ops" games and airsofters. They can keep their website and cater to those children that read it.

Anyone can write for Wikipedia if they have internet access.

I believe your page is fine, until some child decides to re-write what you have done.

TS

Some "child" did at various times. A few months after I rewrote the article, I reviewed it and found that some shithead had altered the awards page, as well as several other pages, to insert some buddy of his as a Delta Force badass with two DSCs in Iraq. I fixed those changes and replaced the entire bio of his buddy on that person's page with a note that the previous bio was a lie.

Other changes are not as bad, but annoying. People mistakenly put erroneous information found on other pages. Some Army Air Force and USAF general's Wikipedia entry mistakenly said he had the DSC instead of the DFC. SO someone added him to the DSC list of notable recipients. After confirming from my database of recipients that it was an error, I fixed both pages.

I am a big critic of Wikipedia for the reasons you cite, and don't waste my time with any "controversial" topics like politics or current events. But I will both criticize and make constructive changes where I can.

I haven't done a lot on Wikipedia. Mainly the DSC entry, the Army DSM entry, some fixes of the Navy Cross page, etc. I revised the Pour le Merite page recently, which was also full of erroneous information, but not so much vandalism. I wrote Robert T. Frederick's bio, though it appears others have added since then. I also fixed some errors on the "Mean Girls" page.

Warrior-Mentor · 12-16-2006, 10:19

I like wikipedia as a hasty reference...it helps narrow searches, etc for more reliable source or just quick background info.

I wouldn't cite it as a refrence for any serious research.

As for the knuckle heads putting stupid things in there, the concept is based on "collective intelligence" the idea being that one knuckle head may list erroneous info, but overtime, people will correct it.

soldierdoc_2005 · 12-19-2006, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

As for the knuckle heads putting stupid things in there, the concept is based on "collective intelligence" the idea being that one knuckle head may list erroneous info, but overtime, people will correct it.

....or collective ignorance :-)

I have a professor who will NOT recognize a wikipedia citation as valid for the purposes of a proper paper. She cited the same reasons everyone else has...no peer review, no controls.

**Airbornelawyer** · 12-19-2006, 19:51

http://www.estripes.com/articleprint...5&archive=true