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Old 09-22-2018, 09:35   #256
lindy
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Originally Posted by Ret10Echo View Post
Ask a Bosniac or a Serb.
Indeed.

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Then I received a call from Izetbegovic. “Mr. Pejic, what you and the TV is trying to do will not happen. You want to keep Bosnia-Herzegovina in Yugoslavia. You are inciting the people to go out onto the streets. You are trying to bring down the legally elected government!”
https://www.rferl.org/a/how_i_failed.../24537627.html
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:29   #257
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I didn't like Clinton and I liked Obama even less - but they were BOTH 'my president' until they weren't...
Exactly. Had to put up with 8 years of both, but despite my intense dislike for them personally and their policies, never did I utter the words "not my president."
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:58   #258
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Father against son, brother against brother and so on. They do not comprehend what horrors "by any means necessary" actually means.
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Originally Posted by Paslode
It's all fun and games for these folks until the other side decides to reciprocate in kind and ups the ante a notch or so.
And the divisive, subversive, dirty tricks laden, irresponsible behavior taking place at the highest levels of government create (to borrow a phrase) — “reluctant partisans” — who quietly observe the subversion and theft of a nation...the globalist/progressive/Statist/open borders crowd openly attempts to bring down a duly elected government - so blatantly - that these articles and discussions continue to take place amongst thoughtful folks...not yahoos.

We are living in precarious times.
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Old 09-22-2018, 13:04   #259
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Ask a Bosniac or a Serb.
I worked with an old Serb man back in the late 80's, he was probably in his 60's. Vince had a huge bone-on for some group, maybe Muslims, and would get fighting mad when younger Serb guys would mention them. A young muslim kid helped me for a few weeks one year, he wasn't as feisty as Vince, but he let you know that the other side 'randomly' and 'without cause' killed 'innocent' elderly, kids and raped their mothers and daughters.

There is a whole lotta hate in that area of the world, and it has been that way for many generations.

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And the divisive, subversive, dirty tricks laden, irresponsible behavior taking place at the highest levels of government create (to borrow a phrase) — “reluctant partisans” — who quietly observe the subversion and theft of a nation...the globalist/progressive/Statist/open borders crowd openly attempts to bring down a duly elected government - so blatantly - that these articles and discussions continue to take place amongst thoughtful folks...not yahoos.

We are living in precarious times.
Their way of life is threatened, as is ours. As I see it, it's a war between the non-producers and the producers.
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Old 09-22-2018, 13:35   #260
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Originally Posted by Ret10Echo View Post
Ask a Bosniac or a Serb.
I worked with an old Serb man back in the late 80's, he was probably in his 60's. Vince had a huge bone-on for some group, maybe Muslims, and would get fighting mad when younger Serb guys would mention them. A young muslim kid helped me for a few weeks one year, he wasn't as feisty as Vince, but he let you know that the other side 'randomly' and 'without cause' killed 'innocent' elderly, kids and raped their mothers and daughters.

There is a whole lotta hate in that area of the world, and it has been that way for many generations.
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Old 09-22-2018, 14:07   #261
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Their way of life is threatened, as is ours. As I see it, it's a war between the non-producers and the producers.
Concur. I certainly understand your perspective.

But, instead of “producers” versus “non-producers” it might be viewed as an epic struggle between vastly different global visions and vastly differing philosophical belief systems - essentially the US Constitution and our way of life versus the Statist/globalist and even Sharia agendas.

The non-producers are merely the useful idiots.

There are currently a combination of forces working against the nation...probably always have been...but currently the elites in both major political parties are contributing (wittingly or unwittingly) to the problem.
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Old 09-22-2018, 16:04   #262
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Concur. I certainly understand your perspective.

But, instead of “producers” versus “non-producers” it might be viewed as an epic struggle between vastly different global visions and vastly differing philosophical belief systems - essentially the US Constitution and our way of life versus the Statist/globalist and even Sharia agendas.

The non-producers are merely the useful idiots.

There are currently a combination of forces working against the nation...probably always have been...but currently the elites in both major political parties are contributing (wittingly or unwittingly) to the problem.
Joseph McCarthy wasn't crazy!

The problems are definitely far complex than the non-producer vs producer scenario. Though O'Keefe's latest video's shed some new light (for some) on one segment of the non-producers, the arrogance permeates DC from Bottom to Top. Only a government worker can literally shit on the office (KC IRS) floor and maintain their job..except maybe in California. Any other place, and the person would terminated and a HAZMAT crew would be called in for clean up. Everything most of us consider abnormal behavior is becoming common place and accepted at the highest levels.


Top-Down Bottom-Up, Inside-Out!


Yet.....

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The line of Trump supporters attending the President’s rally in Springfield, Missouri, is two miles long according to a report from police and a local reporter.
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Old 03-30-2019, 07:17   #263
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An interesting opinion piece - the comments are worth reading and provide additional insight - complete article at link.

The Two Americas Have Grown Much Fiercer
The U.S. was divided 46 years ago. But no one saw it as a fight to the death.
WSJ
By Peggy Noonan
March 28, 2019 7:41 p.m. ET

Sometimes you write about the most obvious thing in the world because it is the most important thing. Reaction to the outcome of Robert Mueller’s investigation shows Americans again how divided we are. If you are more or less of the left, you experienced the probe as a search for truth that would restore the previous world of politics. Instead the traitor got away with it and you feel destabilized, deflated. If you are of the Trumpian right, it was from the beginning an attempted coup, the establishment using everything it had to remove a force it could not defeat at the polls. You are energized, elated.

Now both sides will settle down, with the left as forthcoming in its defeat as the right is forbearing in its victory. I just wanted to show you my fantasy life. The Trump forces will strike with a great pent-up anger, and the left will never let go.

Both sides will be intensely human. And inhuman. Because the past few years the character of our political divisions has changed, and this must be noted again. People are proud of their bitterness now. Old America used to accept our splits as part of the price of being us—numerous, varied, ornery. Current America, with its moderating institutions (churches) going down and its dividing institutions (the internet) rising, sees our polarization not as something to be healed but a reason for being, something to get up for. There’s a finality to it, a war-to-the-death quality.

It is, actually, shocking, and I say this as a person always generally unshocked by American political division, because I came of age in it. When I was a kid we came together as a nation when John F. Kennedy died and manned rockets went up, but after that it was pretty much turmoil—Vietnam, demonstrations, Watergate. You were on one side or the other. The terms left and right started replacing the boring old Democratic and Republican.

I will never forget seeing, on the cover of Time magazine, in October 1972, an essay by Lance Morrow that was ostensibly about the last days of the race between Richard Nixon and George McGovern but really about something bigger. I was in college, and it struck me hard. It was called “The Two Americas,” and was elegantly written and prescient. The candidates were so unlike each other that they seemed to represent different “instincts” about America. “They suggested almost two different countries, two different cultures, two different Americas,” Mr. Morrow wrote. “The McGovern campaign marches to the rhythms of the long, Wagnerian ’60s”—racial upheaval, the war, feminism, the sexual revolution. McGovernites had a more romantic conception of what leadership could be, should be.

In Nixon’s America, on the other hand, there was “the sense of ‘system.’ The free enterprise system, the law and order system, even the ‘family unit’ system.” They were protective of it, grateful to it. And the antonym to their idea of system wasn’t utopia, it was chaos. “They are apprehensive of the disorders that the late ’60s adumbrated to them, the turmoils that they suspect a McGovern accession might bring.” They wanted evolution, not revolution.

While Nixon supporters tended to be more “comfortable,” McGovern backers had their own kind of detachment. Harvard sociologist David Riesman was quoted on part of McGovern’s constituency, professional elites: “They have very little sense of that other day-by-day America.”

Mr. Morrow noted a dynamic still with us, only more so. On both sides, “voters repeat their candidate’s themes and even rhetoric with a precision that is sometimes eerie.” He concluded with the observation that within the two Americas he saw “one common denominator,” the sophistication of the people, their earnest desire, left, right and center, to find and support the best thing for America.

It was written with a respect and warmth toward the American people that is not so common now.

The notion of a country divided reinforced what I thought at the time I’d been seeing. The facts and feel of the divisions change, but division isn’t bad, it’s inevitable and human.

In my lifetime I have seen two things that have helped us reorder ourselves as a nation into some rough if temporary unity. Tragedy, such as 9/11, is one. Sheer political popularity is another. Ronald Reagan had two authentic landslides, the second time, in 1984, winning 49 states. Today’s America doesn’t yield outcomes like that. But there was something we did then that could never happen now.

Writing is never pleasurable, at least for anyone sane, but the most pleasurable and satisfying speeches I worked on with Reagan were those in which you get to bring your love for the other side. A Rose Garden speech praising the excellence of Scoop Jackson or JFK, a speech never given on the excellence of Eleanor Roosevelt. We quoted Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman more than Dwight Eisenhower. The boss had been a Democrat. He’d stumped for Truman in ’48 with Truman. Reagan was not sentimental about our divisions—he knew exactly why he was not a Democrat anymore—but he took every chance he could to reach across the lines and hold on.

But that kind of popularity is probably not possible in this environment. That’s for many reasons, and one is that policy demands have become maximalist. It’s not enough that contraceptives be covered in the government-mandated plan; the nuns must conform. It’s not enough you be sensitive to the effect of your words and language; you must be punished for saying or thinking the wrong thing. It’s not enough that gay marriage is legal; you must be forced to bake the cake. It won’t do that attention be paid to scientific arguments on the environment; America must upend itself with green new deals or be judged not to care about children.


Nothing can be moderate or incremental, everything must be sweeping and definitive. It is all so maximalist, and bullying.

In that environment people start to think that giving an inch is giving a yard. And so they won’t budge.

You don’t even get credit for being extreme in your views but mild in your manner, in the way that people called Barry Goldwater both extreme and mild. Now you must be extreme in your manner or it doesn’t count, you’re not one of us.

It is just such an air of extremeness on the field now, and it reflects a larger sense of societal alienation. We have the fierce teamism of the lonely, who find fellowship in their online fighting group and will say anything for its approval. There are the angry who find relief in politics because they can funnel their rage there, into that external thing, instead of examining closer and more uncomfortable causes. There are the people who cannot consider God and religion and have to put that energy somewhere.

America isn’t making fewer of the lonely, angry and unaffiliated, it’s making more every day.

<snip>

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-two...er-11553816463
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:32   #264
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In that environment people start to think that giving an inch is giving a yard. And so they won’t budge.
Done budging; her own examples below, from the people who are following someone else's guidance & for whom civility is neither in their dictionary nor their current RoE.

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It’s not enough that contraceptives be covered in the government-mandated plan; the nuns must conform. It’s not enough you be sensitive to the effect of your words and language; you must be punished for saying or thinking the wrong thing. It’s not enough that gay marriage is legal; you must be forced to bake the cake. It won’t do that attention be paid to scientific arguments on the environment; America must upend itself with green new deals or be judged not to care about children.
She spent some wonderful time around a fine man. Her lamenting the passing of that time is understood; it's also correct. But, intentional or not, she articulates clearly who has been determined to cross that river named Rubicon.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:36   #265
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Done budging; her own examples below, from the people who are following someone else's guidance & for whom civility is neither in their dictionary nor their current RoE.



She spent some wonderful time around a fine man. Her lamenting the passing of that time is understood; it's also correct. But, intentional or not, she articulates clearly who has been determined to cross that river named Rubicon.
Concur. The comments section appears to reinforce your observations. The leftists have clearly articulated their desire to dominate your life and dictate terms. Oh, and to them the Consitution is merely a tiny speed bump on the path to dominance.
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Old 03-30-2019, 15:19   #266
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One day, I figure in the next five to ten years, they are going to cross the Rubicon or the Potomac and they are going to feel a pushback they are not physically, mentally or emotionally prepared for. At some point in their desire to control the message and the messenger they are going to hit a “triggering moment” and the ‘Christian Right’ is going say the buck stops here...no more! It’s going to be, it has to be a bloody moment and the time to process that will stun everyone for a period of time equal to that of 9/11. If an “Obama” is elected afterward the country; the Republic is done. If a “Reagan” type Classic Democrat/Modern Republican is elected maybe we survive another generation but I think the experiment of a Constitutional Republic cannot survive in its current form.

We have exceeded all expectations and WWII only gave us an extension. We fucked it up! Chose the easy path of least resistance and this is the result.
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Old 03-30-2019, 16:48   #267
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One day, I figure in the next five to ten years, they are going to cross the Rubicon or the Potomac and they are going to feel a pushback they are not physically, mentally or emotionally prepared for. At some point in their desire to control the message and the messenger they are going to hit a “triggering moment” and the ‘Christian Right’ is going say the buck stops here...no more! It’s going to be, it has to be a bloody moment and the time to process that will stun everyone for a period of time equal to that of 9/11. If an “Obama” is elected afterward the country; the Republic is done. If a “Reagan” type Classic Democrat/Modern Republican is elected maybe we survive another generation but I think the experiment of a Constitutional Republic cannot survive in its current form.

We have exceeded all expectations and WWII only gave us an extension. We fucked it up! Chose the easy path of least resistance and this is the result.
I agree that this is the case and, frankly, I’m surprised it hasn’t occurred, already. I just hope when the “stand” occurs it isn’t by radical folks like those in the various racist-nazi groups. I think the outcome would be much better if it is led by people who are making a stand against oppression of freedom, constitutionally protected rights, etc.
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Old 03-30-2019, 18:57   #268
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I just hope when the “stand” occurs it isn’t by radical folks like those in the various racist-nazi groups. I think the outcome would be much better if it is led by people who are making a stand against oppression of freedom, constitutionally protected rights, etc.
It won't matter at least initially. The majority of what passes for press in this country will completely vilify & demonize those in resistance to despotic acts, noble motives or moral high ground be damned. Trust me on that.
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Old 03-30-2019, 20:06   #269
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It won't matter at least initially. The majority of what passes for press in this country will completely vilify & demonize those in resistance to despotic acts, noble motives or moral high ground be damned. Trust me on that.
No more Mr. Nice Guy the gloves are already off. The carnage and violence will shock everyone. the ultra-liberal left will not step up to the fight for their life let alone the snowflake ideas of leaders of their progressive movement.
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Old 03-30-2019, 20:21   #270
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I just hope when the “stand” occurs it isn’t by radical folks like those in the various racist-nazi groups.
I assume you mean BLM and ANTIFA, they have been the only racist nazi type groups that have been inflicting harm for some time.

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the ultra-liberal left will not step up to the fight for their life let alone the snowflake ideas of leaders of their progressive movement.
This is likely true, however they have been importing 3rd worlders who will be more than pleased to do the lefts bidding.
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