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Old 09-28-2009, 05:58   #1
Warrior-Mentor
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Why the Negativity?

Why the Negativity?
By Thomas Paine
September 27, 2009

Exposing the negative aspects of islam are a necessary evil. It’ s impossible to have an educated citizenry if they don’t have all the information available. Once our citizens have all the information – the good, the bad, the ugly – they can accept or reject sharia…because that’s what islam wants for America.

For instance, perhaps most Americans don’t care that Muhammed married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was only 9. [1] But Americans still have the right to know.

Perhaps Americans don’t care that islam endorses men marrying pre-pubescent girls, impregnating them AND divorcing them. [2][See quran 65:4] But Americans still have the right to know.

Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Who gets to decide what we, the People, should know? On this, there is no middle ground. We, the People, have a right to know. Just because islam (sharia) says you can’t speak negatively doesn’t mean we have to follow that rule – even if you can’t discuss islam at the United Nations (Google “united nations free speech” – see what you find out).

John Stuart Mill said that “Truth…has to be made the rough process of a struggle between combatants fighting under hostile banners.” [3] Paraphrasing: this is not a feel-good exercise, this is a pitched battle for control of We - the People, and ultimately the world. The stakes are high and the competition is fierce. The real issue should be whether or not we are presenting the information that is useful to our citizens. The tone of that information should be a secondary issue at best.

Adapting an argument from Professor John G. Geer [4] Why are the islamists so troubled by negativity? “Any deliberative process usually benefits from having criticism and debate…this is why islam prohibits questioning any aspect of it [5] and even makes the study of philosophy illegal. [6] Politics is rough and tumble…and religion is inseparable from state in islam.

Why isn’t it thought of in those terms?

Because islam attempts to hide it's politics behind a veil of religion, some are afraid to discuss the topic.

Why are we worried about “civility” while discussing such barbaric traditions, laws and customs? If some aspect of islam’s record is alarming, is it not important to raise that concern in an attention grabbing fashion?

Shouldn’t the public understand the seriousness of the problem?

Negativity plays an important and under-appreciated role in democracies. In fact, the practice of democracy requires negativity. The give and take of democratic politics demands that we know the good and bad points of issues and challenges. The opposition is well suited to discuss the weaknesses of the other side.

Therefore, in order to learn about the risks and problems associated with challenges, we need the opposition, in effect to “go negative.” When going negative, advocates can actually advance the debate, not undermine it. This simple point seems forgotten in many discussions about the subject.

There is an asymmetry between negative and positive debate appeals. For a negative appeal to be effective, the advocate of that appeal MUST MARSHALL MORE EVIDENCE, on average, than for positive appeals.

The public, like our legal system, operates on the assumption of “innocent until proven guilty.” An advocate of a position cannot simply assert their opposition is evil or wrong. They must provide some evidence for that claim. Which is why I constantly footnote so many of my posts – especially when referencing Islamic law.

Bottomline: NEGATIVITY PROMOTES DEMOCRACY.

Negativity can advance and improve prospects for democracy. Without negativity, no nation can truly think of itself as democratic.

John Stuart Mill said it best:
If the dissenting opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth;
if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of the truth, produced by its collision with error.”


Criticism can increase the quality of information available to [people] as they make decisions. To make good decisions, people need to know the past record of islam to help understand what islam will propose and attempt to do in the future. A central part of that information involves understanding the shortcomings of the “religion.”

The bottom line is that criticism is important because We, the People, must have the right and ability to raise doubts about islam. Otherwise, the public does not have access to full information “about the relevant alternative civilization and their likely consequences.”

If the public wants to have accountability, someone has to do the accounting and that accounting is not done through positive, feel-good appeals, but through harsh political attack where people are made aware of the problems of islam.

ANY effort to curtail the negativity is far worse than enduring harsh rhetoric, since it means that the ability of the opposition to hold the other side accountable for their actions would be weakened.

If negativity ever happened to disappear from our intellectual debates, we can safely assume that so would our freedoms and any chance we have to lay claim to being a democratic nation.
________________________________

Thanks to John Stuart Mill, Professor John G. Geer and Stephen Marks who were the inspiration for this article and are paraphrased heavily throughout.
________________________________
FOOTNOTES:
1. Bukhari, vol. 5, book 63, no. 3896; cf. Bukhari, vol. 7, book 67, no. 5158.

2. “If you are in doubt concerning those of our wives who have ceased menstruating, know that the waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated.” See Quran 65:4.

3. See a summary of “On Liberty” by John Stuart Mill at: http://www.publicbookshelf.com/publi...berty_cbe.html

4. “In Defense of Negativity” by Professor John G. Geer. Geer used political commentators, where I substituted islamists.

5. See “Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law.” Book R, “Holding One’s Tongue,” Paragraph r20.0.

6. See “Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law.” Book A, “Sacred Knowledge,” Paragraph a7.2(2).

7. John Stuart Mill in “On Liberty,” 79.

Last edited by Warrior-Mentor; 10-02-2009 at 18:11.
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Old 09-28-2009, 07:09   #2
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As a citizen of this Republic, I’m disappointed very few people are having dialogue about Islam except those of us who oppose it. The rest are just giving them whatever they want.
I feel we deserve to know the implications and the seriousness of this “Stealth Jihad” that’s taking place within our borders.

Last year I spent a fair amount of time with my daughter countering the skewed view of America, presented to her by her Muslim SS teacher - his main emphasis being the beauty of Shariah Law. A whitewashed view of Islam has crept into our children’s curriculum..
http://www.historytextbooks.org/islam.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6bARRmEpH8
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Old 09-28-2009, 07:45   #3
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But whose negativity is whose? And why is offering criticism a necessary evil? As I have neither the time nor desire to engage in what would assuredly become another overly lengthy e-debate on the theses of this editorial and its many leaps in logic - combined with such overtly negative language - which but lend themselves to challenge and criticism, I posit that histroical context is of great relevance when attempting to present any argument such as this one seeks to address, and will - therefore - only offer the following for those who may be interested in perhaps a better understanding of what Professor Telhami warns us of in his remarks to Congress:

It is primarily al-Qaeda and its allies as organizations that must be defeated. It is not terrorism broadly and it is not Islamism broadly.

<snip>

Given the deficient expertise in our bureaucracies in the languages, religions, and cultures of the Muslim world, we risk the chance of mistakes that could backfire, relying on locals who have their own agendas, and wasting precious resources. The strategy in the first place must remain focused on the operational and the logistical, not on what people say.

Quote:
For instance, perhaps most Americans don’t care that Muhammed married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was only 9. [1] But Americans still have the right to know.

Perhaps Americans don’t care that islam endorses men marrying pre-pubescent girls, impregnating them AND divorcing them. [2][See quran 65:4] But Americans still have the right to know.
At the time of Muhammad's birth, women in 7th century Arabia had few if any rights. Even the right of life could be in question, since it was not uncommon for small girls to be buried alive during times of scarcity. In the Qur'an, it is said that on Judgment Day "buried girls" will rise out of their graves and ask for what crime they were killed. Part of Muhammad's legacy was to end infanticide and establish explicit rights for women.

Islam teaches that men and women are equal before God. It grants women divinely sanctioned inheritance, property, social and marriage rights, including the right to reject the terms of a proposal and to initiate divorce. The American middle-class trend to include a prenuptial agreement in the marriage contract is completely acceptable in Islamic law. In Islam's early period, women were professionals and property owners, as many are today. Although in some countries today the right of women to initiate divorce is more difficult than intended, this is a function of patriarchal legislation and not an expression of Islamic values. Muhammad himself frequently counseled Muslim men to treat their wives and daughters well. "You have rights over your women," he is reported to have said, "and your women have rights over you."

Muhammad was orphaned at an early age. He once remarked that, "Heaven lies at the feet of mothers." As the father of four daughters in a society that prized sons, he told other fathers that, if their daughters spoke well of them on the Day of Judgment, they would enter paradise.

Beginning from the time of Muhammad's marriage to his first wife Khadijah, women played an important role in his religious career. According to Muslim sources, Khadijah was the first person Muhammad spoke to about his initial, terrifying experience of revelation. She consoled him and became the first convert to Islam. She remained a confidant and source of support throughout their entire marriage. Though men commonly took more than one wife in 7th Century Arabia, Muhammad remained in a monogamous marriage with Khadijah until her death, when Muhammad was in his fifties.

By then, Muhammad was working to establish a new community. In that context, over the next 10 years, he married several women. In some cases, these marriages occurred in order to cement political ties, according to the custom of the day. In some cases, the marriage provided physical and economic shelter to the widows of Muslims who had died or who had been killed in battle, and to the wife of a fallen foe. Of all his marriages, only one appears to have been controversial, and it was to the divorced wife of his adopted son.

Only one of his wives had not been previously married. Her name was Aisha, the daughter of one of his closest companions. Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad while still a girl, but she remained in her parents' home for several years until she reached puberty. Years later, when absent from Medina, Muhammad often recommended that, if religious questions arose, people should take them to his wife Aisha. After Muhammad's death, Aisha became a main source of information about Muhammad, and on medicine and poetry as well.

Aisha's assertion that Muhammad lived the Qur'an became the basis for Muslims ever since to emulate his example.

Muhammad's daughters also played an important and influential role, both in his life and in the establishment of Islam. Most notable was his daughter Fatima, who is still revered by all Muslims, particularly Shiite Muslims.

Following the Battle of Uhud (625), in which scores of male combatants died leaving unprotected widows and children, Muhammad and the Qur'an decreed that, in order to protect the orphans of such families, men might take up to four wives. The permission itself is surrounded with language that discourages the very thing it permits, saying that unless a man can treat several wives equally, he should never enter into multiple marriages. The usual supposition in the modern monogamous West-that Islam institutionally encourages lustful arrangements-is rejected by Muslims themselves as an ill-informed stereotype. At the same time, Muslim feminists point out that in various cultures at different economic strata the laws of polygamy have frequently operated to the clear detriment of women. Polygamy is an uncommon occurrence in the modern Muslim world.

Today, Islamic legal and social systems around the world approach and fall short of women's rights by varying degrees. Muslims themselves generally view Islam as progressive in these matters. Many Muslim feminists hold the view that the problems presently hindering Muslim women are those that hinder women of all backgrounds worldwide- oppressive cultural practices, poverty, illiteracy, political repression and patriarchy. There is a strong, healthy critique of gender oppression among Muslim feminist authors and activists worldwide.

It would be anachronistic to claim that Muhammad was a feminist in our modern sense. Yet the same present-day barriers to women's equality prevailed in 7th century Arabia, and he opposed them. Because in his own lifetime Muhammad improved women's position in society, many modern Muslims continue to value his example, which they cite when pressing for women's rights.


http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/index.shtml

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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 09-28-2009, 15:22   #4
Warrior-Mentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
At the time of Muhammad's birth, women in 7th century Arabia had few if any rights. Even the right of life could be in question, since it was not uncommon for small girls to be buried alive during times of scarcity. In the Qur'an, it is said that on Judgment Day "buried girls" will rise out of their graves and ask for what crime they were killed. Part of Muhammad's legacy was to end infanticide and establish explicit rights for women.
Child Marriage. This photo wasn’t taken in the 7th Century.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lmw6-zrPSi...fghanistan.jpg

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/....5870970c-500wi

According to UNICEF, 57 percent of marriages in Afghanistan involve girls below sixteen years of age. [1][2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Islam teaches that men and women are equal before God.
Stop. “The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man. The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim.” [3]

In fact, by Islamic law:
“The husband may forbid his wife to leave the home.” [4]
“Men are already destroyed when they obey women.” [5]
When a wife commits rebelliousness, he (her husband) “may hit her, but not in a way that injures her, meaning he may not break bones, wound her or cause blood to flow.” [6]

And “A husband possesses full right to enjoy his wife’s person (A: from the top of her head to the bottoms of her feet, though anal intercourse is absolutely unlawful) in what does not physically harm her.” [7]

It would be easy to go on, but you can already see that this is simply not the case – women aren’t equal under Islamic law.

Bottom line: Richard’s quote would only be correct if it was listed as “Islam teaches NON-MUSLIMS that men and women are equal before God.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
It grants women divinely sanctioned inheritance, property, social and marriage rights, including the right to reject the terms of a proposal and to initiate divorce.
Let’s look at just one of the rights listed above, marriage “rights.” For women in Islamic law Per Islamic law, the wife’s marital obligations include: “it is obligatory for a woman to let her husband have sex with her immediately when: a. he asks her, b. at home, c. and she can physically endure it. [8] But the wife does have the right to intercourse: “One should make love to one’s wife every four nights, as is fairest, since the number of wives on may have is four…” [9]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
The American middle-class trend to include a prenuptial agreement in the marriage contract is completely acceptable in Islamic law. In Islam's early period, women were professionals and property owners, as many are today. Although in some countries today the right of women to initiate divorce is more difficult than intended, this is a function of patriarchal legislation and not an expression of Islamic values.
A reading of Book N “Divorce” in Reliance of the Traveller will show why this isn’t accurate. Islamic law is strictly derived from the Koran, sira and hadith. To say that Islamic law doesn’t reflect Islamic values simply isn’t correct. In fact, once scholarly consensus exists, the ruling becomes a part of sacred law – obligatory to obey and not lawful to disobey.[10] Further, “to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or add a verse that does not belong to it…” entails apostacy from islam. [11]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Muhammad himself frequently counseled Muslim men to treat their wives and daughters well. "You have rights over your women," he is reported to have said, "and your women have rights over you."

Muhammad was orphaned at an early age. He once remarked that, "Heaven lies at the feet of mothers." As the father of four daughters in a society that prized sons, he told other fathers that, if their daughters spoke well of them on the Day of Judgment, they would enter paradise.

Beginning from the time of Muhammad's marriage to his first wife Khadijah, women played an important role in his religious career. According to Muslim sources, Khadijah was the first person Muhammad spoke to about his initial, terrifying experience of revelation. She consoled him and became the first convert to Islam. She remained a confidant and source of support throughout their entire marriage. Though men commonly took more than one wife in 7th Century Arabia, Muhammad remained in a monogamous marriage with Khadijah until her death, when Muhammad was in his fifties.
Irrelevant. So what? He was a nice guy by only having one wife until he was 50? What has this got to do with our discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
By then, Muhammad was working to establish a new community. In that context, over the next 10 years, he married several women. [12] In some cases, these marriages occurred in order to cement political ties, according to the custom of the day. In some cases, the marriage provided physical and economic shelter to the widows of Muslims who had died or who had been killed in battle, and to the wife of a fallen foe. Of all his marriages, only one appears to have been controversial , and it was to the divorced wife of his adopted son.
This is the previously footnoted marriage to a 6 year old girl Aisha. But is suppose if you’re married at 9 years old, it’s not statutory rape. I know, I know – statutory rape didn’t exist back then. My point is, we – humanity – has evolved since then. Islam hasn’t. What was once good for islam will always be good for islam – for all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Only one of his wives had not been previously married. Her name was Aisha, the daughter of one of his closest companions. Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad while still a girl, but she remained in her parents' home for several years until she reached puberty. Years later, when absent from Medina, Muhammad often recommended that, if religious questions arose, people should take them to his wife Aisha. After Muhammad's death, Aisha became a main source of information about Muhammad, and on medicine and poetry as well.
Stockholm Syndrome anyone? [13]

“It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as:
- Abused Children
- Battered/Abused Women
- Prisoners of War
- Cult Members
- Incest Victims
- Criminal Hostage Situations
- Concentration Camp Prisoners
- Controlling/Intimidating Relationships”

Clearly Aisha, a young and impressionable young girl subjected to years of abuse, fits several of these categories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Aisha's assertion that Muhammad lived the Qur'an became the basis for Muslims ever since to emulate his example.
Now there’s an example to follow:

Pedophile. An adult who is sexually attracted to a child or children. [14] Already discussed with Aisha.

Statutory Rape. Sexual intercourse by an adult with a person below a statutorily designated age. [15]

Psychopath. A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse. [16] “The Prophet cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died.” [17]

Highway Robber, Thief. “The Apostle had gone out to meet the caravans of Quraish, but Allah caused them (i.e. Muslims) to meet their enemy unexpectedly.” [18]

Polygamist. One who practices having more than one spouse at one time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Muhammad's daughters also played an important and influential role, both in his life and in the establishment of Islam. Most notable was his daughter Fatima, who is still revered by all Muslims, particularly Shiite Muslims.
Irrelevant fluff. Thanks for wasting our time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Following the Battle of Uhud (625), in which scores of male combatants died leaving unprotected widows and children, Muhammad and the Qur'an decreed that, in order to protect the orphans of such families, men might take up to four wives. The permission itself is surrounded with language that discourages the very thing it permits, saying that unless a man can treat several wives equally, he should never enter into multiple marriages. The usual supposition in the modern monogamous West-that Islam institutionally encourages lustful arrangements-is rejected by Muslims themselves as an ill-informed stereotype. At the same time, Muslim feminists point out that in various cultures at different economic strata the laws of polygamy have frequently operated to the clear detriment of women. Polygamy is an uncommon occurrence in the modern Muslim world.
This is part of the inflexibility of islam. You see, it’s in the books. It’s legal and once it is ijthad (a legal ruling), verified by scholarly consensus, it is an absolute legal ruling which cannot be contravened or annulled. [19]

(continued)
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Old 09-28-2009, 15:23   #5
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Response Continued and Footnotes

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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Today, Islamic legal and social systems around the world approach and fall short of women's rights by varying degrees. Muslims themselves generally view Islam as progressive in these matters. Many Muslim feminists hold the view that the problems presently hindering Muslim women are those that hinder women of all backgrounds worldwide- oppressive cultural practices, poverty, illiteracy, political repression and patriarchy. There is a strong, healthy critique of gender oppression among Muslim feminist authors and activists worldwide.

It would be anachronistic to claim that Muhammad was a feminist in our modern sense. Yet the same present-day barriers to women's equality prevailed in 7th century Arabia, and he opposed them. Because in his own lifetime Muhammad improved women's position in society, many modern Muslims continue to value his example, which they cite when pressing for women's rights.
Really? Richard, you believe this?

FOOTNOTES:
___________________________
1. http://www.stolenchildhood.net/entry...ild-marriages/
2. http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1079316.html
3. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book o “Justice,” see Paragraph o4.9
4. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book m “Marriage,” see Paragraph m10.4
5. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book p “Enormities,” see Paragraph p28.1(1)
6. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book m “Marriage,” see Paragraph m10.12
7. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book m “Marriage,” see Paragraph m5.4
8. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book m “Marriage,” see Paragraph m5.1
9. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book m “Marriage,” see Paragraph m5.2
10. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book b “The Validity of Following Qualified Scholarship,” see Paragraph b7.2
11. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book o “Justice,” see Paragraph o8.7(7)
12. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/polygamy
13. http://counsellingresource.com/quizz...olm/index.html
14. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pedophile
15. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...Statutory+Rape
16. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/psychopath
17. Hadith, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 795; Narrated Anas.
18. Hadith, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 287; Narrated Kab bin Malik.
19. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, Book b “The Validity of Following Qualified Scholarship,” see Paragraph b7.2
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Old 09-28-2009, 15:52   #6
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Having read the Koran a couple of times I'm with WM on this one.
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Old 09-28-2009, 16:06   #7
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Astounding.

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Old 09-28-2009, 16:19   #8
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Yeah know I have been around a while and have a few miles on my ass.

I can tell you that you can never lump every one in a specific group into one category. The shit heads (10-20%) usually make it bad for the rest.

I have known a few Muslims around the world from the US to AStan to Indonesia and all are not bad. I know that their cultural beliefs and religious beliefs clash immensely with our.

Bottom line we will have to deal with the nuts and extreme religious zealots before the moderates will be willing to step out and make their presence known.

If they wish to live in the dark ages so be it and and lets move them into a nice valley so they can do so. If they come in my back yard and knock on the door they will get a quick response from me. If they knock on the front door I will say hello and then kick them off the stoop. If they try to harm my family and friends and country I will track them down where ever they have run off to and cut their throats. If they leave me in peace and play in their valley I will do the same.

Shariah is not for me or our country so they better keep it in their valley.

We need to keep our perspective and not go psycho like they have or we are no better then they are.
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Old 09-28-2009, 16:53   #9
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Yeah know I have been around a while and have a few miles on my ass.

I can tell you that you can never lump every one in a specific group into one category. The shit heads (10-20%) usually make it bad for the rest.

I have known a few Muslims around the world from the US to AStan to Indonesia and all are not bad. I know that their cultural beliefs and religious beliefs clash immensely with our.

Bottom line we will have to deal with the nuts and extreme religious zealots before the moderates will be willing to step out and make their presence known.

If they wish to live in the dark ages so be it and and lets move them into a nice valley so they can do so. If they come in my back yard and knock on the door they will get a quick response from me. If they knock on the front door I will say hello and then kick them off the stoop. If they try to harm my family and friends and country I will track them down where ever they have run off to and cut their throats. If they leave me in peace and play in their valley I will do the same.

Shariah is not for me or our country so they better keep it in their valley.

We need to keep our perspective and not go psycho like they have or we are no better then they are.
I couldn't agree with you more.
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Old 09-28-2009, 19:03   #10
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My point isn't that all Muslims are bad. That's not it.
There are good Muslims.
The point is, there's no such thing as good islam.

Some people aren't picking up the distinction between Muslims and islam.

We figured this out in Germany in 1945.
Why is it so hard now?

Go read Mein Kampf. You keep saying, "but wait, I know a nice German..."
I agree! There are nice Germans.
That doesn't change the fact that Mein Kampf is the "bible" for an evil ideology.

A quote that I heard recently was "Love the Muslim, hate islam."

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Old 09-28-2009, 19:50   #11
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My point isn't that all Muslims are bad. That's not it.
There are good Muslims.
The point is, there's no such thing as good islam.

Some people aren't picking up the distinction between Muslims and islam.

We figured this out in Germany in 1945.
Why is it so hard now?

Go read Mein Kampf. You keep saying, "but wait, I know a nice German..."
I agree! There are nice Germans.
That doesn't change the fact that Mein Kampf is the "bible" for an evil ideology.

A quote that I heard recently was "Love the Muslim, hate islam."
May I ask you a question, and I mean this in all sincerity. What is your plan for combatting Islam? On one hand you say that you believe Islam should be demoted in its religious status, that the Koran preaches nothing but hate for Jews/Christians. Islam allows for pedophila, and crimes against women and children. That Islam will NEVER change, can't be reasoned with, and is the antithesis for everything you hold dear.

Yet you just stated that you believe there are good Muslims. How does your rationale for their being good Muslims coincide with everything else you have ever stated about how evil Islam is.

If you were "king for a day" and could solve our problems with Islam, how would you go about doing it?
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Old 09-28-2009, 20:20   #12
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May I ask you a question, and I mean this in all sincerity. What is your plan for combatting Islam? On one hand you say that you believe Islam should be demoted in its religious status, that the Koran preaches nothing but hate for Jews/Christians. Islam allows for pedophila, and crimes against women and children. That Islam will NEVER change, can't be reasoned with, and is the antithesis for everything you hold dear.

Yet you just stated that you believe there are good Muslims. How does your rationale for their being good Muslims coincide with everything else you have ever stated about how evil Islam is.

If you were "king for a day" and could solve our problems with Islam, how would you go about doing it?
The question was not directed to me, but IMO, combating Islam in the war of ideas is a start. One example is Father Zakaria Botros, who is actively engaging Muslims and encouraging an open and honest discussion of Islam. See previous posts about Father Botros here

"As I love Muslims, I hate Islam"
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ad.php?t=20823

and here

"Islam is Most Certainly False"
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...hlight=zakaria
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Old 09-28-2009, 20:25   #13
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If you were "king for a day" and could solve our problems with Islam, how would you go about doing it?
Great question. If it were easy, we would have figured it out by now.

Your own public profile cites one of my favorite quotes from John Stuart Mill:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

It may one day come to that. I hope not. But hope is not a method.

For now, I continue to study and learn - about ourselves and the enemy.
It's Sun Tsu ...know yourself and know your enemy.
Wish more people would do the same...spend some time studying the challges we face...especially more of our National Security "professionals."

Just this weekend, I finished Norman Podhoersts WW IV (his metaphor for the War on Terror) and re-read parts of Thomas Paine's Rights of Man. I frequently re-read the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

I'm currently reading "Defeating Political Islam" by Moorthy S. Muthuswamy.
http://www.amazon.com/Defeating-Poli.../dp/1591027047

Dr. Sebastian Gorka pointed out that historically, militant islam has only been beaten back militarily.

Why? It is the aggressive, totalitarian doctrine of islam.

What happens when islamists lose militarily? It causes them to question their faith and their actions.

You see allah doesn't lose battles or wars. So they must be doing something against the will of allah.
Or they have to fall back on the much weaker argument that they were doing the will of allah, just the "timing" was wrong.

This is why handing over Afghanistan would be such a disaster. It reinforces their story that they can defeat super powers.

As a short digression, Dr Gorka had an interesting article in Foreign Policy not long ago worth reading:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...efeat_al_qaeda
Obviously I don't agree with everything in it, but I respect him and his assessment enough to share it with you.
You decide for yourself where you are on the Afghan surge and the war of ideas...

I wish there was an easy solution.

For now I will learn as much as I can to know ourselves and the enemy (which I will define as islamists).
I would encourage as many others as possible to learn about islam as well.

But not just the "Early Revelations" as is frequently used in our classrooms:
http://www.amazon.com/Approaching-Qu...4190727&sr=1-1

Because knowing about Progressive Revelation, Abrogation and Scholarly Consensus, for example, you'll understand that there's more to the story...so many of those "early revelations" (Mecca) have been abrogated by the later, aggressive militant ones...the ones "revealed" in Medina.

America created the internet as a form of communication to survive a nuclear holocaust. I hope that we can use this as a way to spread the full story...and ultimately let people decide for themselves. For now, I remain realistic, but hopeful.

I believe GEN Petraeus said it best "Hard is not hopeless."

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Old 09-28-2009, 20:40   #14
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Great thread - just fixed the link here:

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Old 09-28-2009, 20:50   #15
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Great thread - just fixed the link here:
Thanks for fixing the link.
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