04-28-2004, 20:41
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Point Shooting
What do you guys think about point shooting?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-28-2004, 20:45
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#2
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 206
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It has a time and place........for close ranges 0-15 yards, I use a variation of it called "target focus" developed by California Highway patrol......basically you look through your sites while focusing on the target.
I've practiced enough with it, that I am pretty quick with it, and all my shots are in about a 4 inch circle at that range.
Some folks will slam this technique, but it works for me.
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BadMuther is offline
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04-28-2004, 20:48
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#3
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by BadMuther
It has a time and place........for close ranges 0-15 yards, I use a variation of it called "target focus" developed by California Highway patrol......basically you look through your sites while focusing on the target.
I've practiced enough with it, that I am pretty quick with it, and all my shots are in about a 4 inch circle at that range.
Some folks will slam this technique, but it works for me.
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If it is stupid, but it works for you, it wasn't really stupid.
I use it at very close ranges where extreme precision is not required.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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04-28-2004, 20:56
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#4
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Quiet Professional
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I think a lot of the detractors were never shown how to do it properly - like a lot of things. They proally read some guru in a magazine say it doesn't work and made a half-assed attempt at it. They also may not be using it at the right distances, etc.
Lot of people been shot in the face by point shooters.
It seems to me that the more you practice the flash site picture and the faster you get, the more you are doing point shooting. That muscle memory kicks in and you get going so fast you just do it.
A while back, I moved my holster a little further back on the belt to hook it in behind that tool loop on the 5.11s. I noticed as soon as I did, I had to slow way down at very short ranges until I got used to it. It was changing all the muscle memory and I had to relearn. I'm pretty much back where I was now. Funny how little things make a big difference.
Like hanging a rucksack on a Golden Knight. LOL
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-28-2004, 20:57
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#5
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Carolina
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TR-
Sir, from my police training, shooting from the hip was taught at 0-3 and point shooting was taught from 3-7.
Personally, I am comfortable shooting "target focus with sights" out to 15 yards.
At what range do you switch from point to full sight picture shooting?
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Last edited by BadMuther; 04-28-2004 at 21:02.
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BadMuther is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:02
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#6
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
It seems to me that the more you practice the flash site picture and the faster you get, the more you are doing point shooting. That muscle memory kicks in and you get going so fast you just do it.
Like hanging a rucksack on a Golden Knight. LOL
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NDD, with your "flash site picture" are you focusing on the front site or the bad guy?
The target focus is basically a flash site but focusing on the target...and I know what you are saying about the muscle memory....
Golden Knights and rucksacks.......or SEALs! 
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BadMuther is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:03
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#7
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Like hanging a rucksack on a Golden Knight. LOL
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Good one.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:04
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#8
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
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Probably the target. I'm so fast I can't really tell and I don't really think about it - just sort of Nike it. 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:06
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#9
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by BadMuther
TR-
Sir, from my police training, shooting from the hip was taught at 0-3 and point shooting was taught from 3-7.
Personally, I am comfortable shooting "target focus with sights" out to 15 yards.
At what range do you switch from point to full sight picture shooting?
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Hate to say this, but METT-T dependent.
I would prefer not to be trying to align sights with a target less than a second away, so 7 yds. would be about my limit.
That would seem to make most non-discriminating CQB shots best taken as point shots, would it not?
Where is the Team Sergeant on this?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:10
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#10
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Quiet Professional
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I would say 0-3 meters point, 3-7 flash, then start using sites.
Of course of you're shooting around something or don't have a good full target, you'll need to get a little more precise.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:20
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#11
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I would say 0-3 meters point, 3-7 flash, then start using sites.
Of course of you're shooting around something or don't have a good full target, you'll need to get a little more precise.
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That's a good rule of thumb. My 15 yard TF sfots aren't pretty if I haven't practiced in awhile.
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BadMuther is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:23
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#12
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Of course I don't measure... 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-28-2004, 21:28
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#13
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 206
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Hell no....you are "Nike'ing it", right?
Prolly so quick on reloads you didn't know you did it until you tripped on the empties too, huh?
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BadMuther is offline
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05-02-2004, 22:24
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#14
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally posted by BadMuther
It has a time and place........for close ranges 0-15 yards, I use a variation of it called "target focus" developed by California Highway patrol......basically you look through your sites while focusing on the target.
I've practiced enough with it, that I am pretty quick with it, and all my shots are in about a 4 inch circle at that range.
Some folks will slam this technique, but it works for me.
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Some other FI's in my department are die hard Jeff Copper fans and will only teach front site flash techniques. I (personally) use and teach what you are talking about BadMuther looking through your sites but concentrating on C.O.M. from 0-10 yards. Some people (usually the ones who are the faster shooters) Like the technique.
We also teach a body indexing where you square you shoulders with the target and shoot from the top of the hoslter for 0-3 feet.
I believe point shooting has its place as long as it is practiced!
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Smokin Joe is offline
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05-02-2004, 23:18
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#15
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 152
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
We also teach a body indexing where you square you shoulders with the target and shoot from the top of the hoslter for 0-3 feet.
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LAPD guy shot him self through the back of his weak side elbow at the range... keep your dick beaters out of the way when practicing this.
I can only imagine the pain.
Anyway, There was a good discussion on this over on glock talk:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread....hreadid=242688
I won't re-hash it. Check it out, Gabe Suarez is more eloquent than I am.
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