02-06-2004, 19:01
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#1
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New Brunswick Canada
Posts: 181
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Night nav in total darkness??
Hi,
Is it possible to navigate accurately during a total darkness night?
With no GPS of course.
Thank you.
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True fitness is task-oriented.
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Desert Fox is offline
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02-06-2004, 19:16
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#2
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Welcome Desert Fox.
LOL, a fine question indeed.
The short answer is yes. We’ve been navigating quite well for a number of years devoid of the Global Positioning System. (Even during the hours of “total” darkness.)
The Team Sergeant
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"The Spartans do not ask how many are the enemy, but where they are."
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Team Sergeant is offline
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02-06-2004, 19:45
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#3
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,767
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Quote:
Originally posted by AProfSoldier
Welcome Desert Fox.
LOL, a fine question indeed.
The short answer is yes. We’ve been navigating quite well for a number of years devoid of the Global Positioning System. (Even during the hours of “total” darkness.)
The Team Sergeant
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Inquiring minds want to know.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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02-06-2004, 20:55
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#4
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Also depends on the terrain.
I have learned the hard way that even with NODs, it can be so dark that it is dangerous to move in certain terrain.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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02-06-2004, 21:12
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#5
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New Brunswick Canada
Posts: 181
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Also depends on the terrain.
I have learned the hard way that even with NODs, it can be so dark that it is dangerous to move in certain terrain.
TR
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Thank you.
Question: does it would be possible (Does an ODA can call for that) to launch any IR flare, or to use IR lamp. May be an IR flare or lamp would be good in a mission in wich the eny is lacking in technology.
What do you think about that?
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True fitness is task-oriented.
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Desert Fox is offline
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02-06-2004, 22:03
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#6
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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I think that there are too many IR detectors on almost any battlefield nowdays to use any high intensity IR source.
NVDs have low powered illumination capability, and IR flashlight type illuminators are available, but when there are less than a dozen of you in the area, facing MANY more enemy, do you really want to call attention to yourself with a flare or high intensity light source?
Just my .02.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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02-06-2004, 22:19
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,510
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"How to navigate in total darkness", or "Why You Want to Have a Tritium Illuminated Compass".
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Razor is offline
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02-06-2004, 22:33
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#8
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New Brunswick Canada
Posts: 181
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
I think that there are too many IR detectors on almost any battlefield nowdays to use any high intensity IR source.
NVDs have low powered illumination capability, and IR flashlight type illuminators are available, but when there are less than a dozen of you in the area, facing MANY more enemy, do you really want to call attention to yourself with a flare or high intensity light source?
Just my .02.
TR
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Hi TR,
Obviously the problem with any IR illuminating device is that it is not passive.
Thank you!
PS: excuse me for my imperfect English.
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True fitness is task-oriented.
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Desert Fox is offline
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02-06-2004, 22:45
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#9
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Your English is fine, and is much better than my French.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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02-10-2004, 15:22
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#10
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Guest
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ok...I submit this for consideration by the QPs. I was dropped off alone at a point in total darkness and given the grid coordinate of my location. I had the grid of the target, so obviously all I had to do was shoot a bearing and go, right?
I ASSUMED (oops) that I was where they told me I was. It was really too dark to do much in the way of terrain association anyway, even with NOD. I shot a bearing and stepped off...after about 500 meters, I stopped to do a map check, and where I was didn't appear to correspond to where I thought I was. I eventually shot a back azimuth and went right back to where I started from, hoping I'd just gotten dicked up somehow. After a couple more forays through the woods in the dark, I decided that either a) I'm too dumb to be out here by myself or b) I must have copied incorrectly, or something. I tried at this point to locate myself using terrain association, but as I noted above I couldn't see shit. Eventually, I decided to park and wait for daylight so I could figure out where the fruck I was.
The short version was that the cadre had screwed up (really, not intentionally) and given me a bad grid for my location. I got back on track once I could see again, and eventually got where I was headed, albeit late.
Here's the question. Did I do the right thing? Once I figured out I was 'mis-oriented', I decided to move a hundred meters or so from the dropoff point (to evade potential OPFOR) and lay up, figuring that I didn't want to add insult to injury by wandering off to totally unfamiliar ground.
TIA,
QS
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02-10-2004, 17:21
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,510
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Was there a prominent linear feature (i.e. road, river, ridgeline) anywhere in your AO? If so, you might have been able to navigate to that, then run it in one direction or another to another easily identifiable feature, use that as your starting grid, then navigate to your first point. Same thing if there was some prominent point feature nearby, such as a hilltop/saddle, body of water, man-made feature, etc. Of course, these are just ideas, and may not apply to your scenario.
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Razor is offline
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02-10-2004, 17:43
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#12
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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I'm with Razor on this, that's how I do it even when I can see. I don't know if they still call them this, but I was taught attack points. I terrain associate on the run to a point close to the target, a point I know I can't miss. The when I get there, I know exactly where I am and I get on a hard bearing until I get my exact point. If I don't find it, I just go back to the attack point (or another one closer) and do it again. I was taught this by a guy that was a Recon Marine in Vietnam, democratic People's Republic of. Its never failed me. Just my way.
QS, if you're going to move off and wait, I would suggest at least small arms range - better to build good habits early.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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02-10-2004, 18:06
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#13
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Guest
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Razor's answer is probably what I should have done. I was not 'in practice' doing nav when this happened, and so I fell back on the thought that I should just stop before I fucked up worse...lol.
Excellent point on moving out of small arms range. This was a regional sniper comp, and I was doing my quiet as a mouse routine.
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02-10-2004, 18:09
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#14
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Stopping is not a bad plan. Remember the maxim - First thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging.
Nothing wrong with cease and desist while you get it together.
Edit to add - its ok to stop to get it together, just don't take too long.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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02-10-2004, 18:14
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#15
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Guest
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To answer the question, yes, there was a road within a k or so, but I didn't see that until the morning. It was a deserted country road so there were no traffic noises.
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