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Old 04-28-2007, 13:50   #121
kgoerz
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This issue was brought to the attention of Ross by a constituent whose son is a member of Arkansas’s 39th Infantry Brigade, which was recently informed that they could be deployed to Iraq by the end of the year.
Is there any way to know who this constituent is, has he donated to the Ross campaign before and if so, the amount of money donated. More power to him for asking. besides truly being concerned that our troops have the best equipment out there. Is there any other reason he is concerned for the well being of Soldiers? Ill check out his Home Page if he has one.

He has done the Military visiting circuit. He has recognized a couple of KIA Soldiers from AR on the floor. He is for the war resolution with a pull out date. Wouldn't of voted for the war if he knew then what he knows today, never heard that before. States we need to pull out once Iraq security forces are trained up and can take over, thats what we are trying to do last time I checked. But agrees to having a withdrawal date????
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Old 04-28-2007, 14:58   #122
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Originally Posted by kgoerz
He has done the Military visiting circuit. He has recognized a couple of KIA Soldiers from AR on the floor. He is for the war resolution with a pull out date. Wouldn't of voted for the war if he knew then what he knows today, never heard that before. States we need to pull out once Iraq security forces are trained up and can take over, thats what we are trying to do last time I checked. But agrees to having a withdrawal date????
He is trying to have it both ways.

He supports the troops, and the Dems national cut and run policy at the same time.

Typical.

TR
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Old 04-28-2007, 16:26   #123
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Originally Posted by kgoerz
Is there any way to know who this constituent is?
Representative Ross stated on the floor that his constituent, Mr. Grant, is a "member of SFTT".

The Associated Press State & Local Wire
April 17, 2007 Tuesday 6:27 AM GMT

Arkansas man leads charge for best body armor for soldiers

BYLINE: By JILL ZEMAN, Associated Press Writer
SECTION: STATE AND REGIONAL
LENGTH: 443 words
DATELINE: LITTLE ROCK


An Arkansas man is leading a charge for a congressional investigation on whether the U.S. military is using the best available body armor, saying he wants the best possible protection for his 20-year-old son about to serve a second tour of duty in Iraq.

John Grant of Pearcy has engaged the help of U.S. Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., who said he plans to call for the investigation.

"We owe it to all soldiers and their families to ensure that our troops are given the finest armor and equipment available. We must resolve this issue for our soldiers' welfare and their families' peace of mind," Ross said.

Ross said he planned to submit a letter to military officials, asking for more tests on the Dragon Skin armor and the Interceptor Body Armor.

Grant said his son, Sgt. John Tyler Grant, joined the Arkansas National Guard at age 17 and is a dedicated soldier who's looking at a career in the military. He said his son "loves the Guard."

"I think it's unconscionable that they haven't given the troops the armor they deserve," Grant said.

Grant began researching body armor in January, after watching a cable television program that compared one type of body armor against that used by the Army, Interceptor Body Armor.

The Army has banned soldiers from wearing the Dragon Skin armor that Grant prefers. Dragon Skin has not yet passed Army testing, and Grant says it can provide better protection because it is more flexible than the armor currently in use.

"When you have the technology available to better protect the soldiers and (military officials) choose not to use it, it's a criminal act," Grant said Monday. "There are soldiers that died that didn't have to die. Soldiers die in war, but we've got to give them the best chance to live."

Some troops purchased their own body armor after equipment shortages in 2005, and Congress enacted legislation to reimburse them. But months later the Army issued a "Safety of Use Message" that banned all body armor except the Interceptor armor.

"This concerns me greatly because our combat soldiers should not be denied the use of the latest and most effective body armor, regardless of the cost involved, if it will result in the preservation of their lives," Ross' letter said.

The Army has said armor bought commercially is either untested or inadequate. The Army has said it wants to buy the best protective gear possible, including the Dragon Skin vest, if the gear passes testing.

"And if someone finds the holy grail (of body armor), then we'll be right there to back up the dump truck and buy it," Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, the Army secretary's deputy assistant for acquisition and systems management, said last spring.
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Old 04-28-2007, 16:46   #124
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Does Mr. Grant own and operate a certified armor testing facility, and if not, what is the basis for his expertise and comments? SFTT assclown.

Maybe he should have his Congressman inquire into what happened to the 100 MPG carburetor as well. And where is Elvis and the UFOs?

TR
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Old 04-28-2007, 17:01   #125
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No but...

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Originally Posted by The Reaper
Does Mr. Grant own and operate a certified armor testing facility.....TR
No but he did watch a piece on the Discovery Channel. I guess that makes him an expert in his own mind.

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Old 04-28-2007, 19:45   #126
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No but he did watch a piece on the Discovery Channel. I guess that makes him an expert in his own mind.

Pete
There's stupid and then there's "Discovery Channel" stupid.

If it's on TV it must be true.

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Old 05-02-2007, 16:14   #127
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Originally Posted by Karl.Masters
"When you have the technology available to better protect the soldiers and (military officials) choose not to use it, it's a criminal act," Grant said Monday. "There are soldiers that died that didn't have to die. Soldiers die in war, but we've got to give them the best chance to live."
Typical bullshit hyperbole. Cite me one example of a Soldier or Marine that died from SAF who would have been saved by Dragon Skin's "superior" attributes.

LTC Masters, correct me if I am wrong, but DS has not been proven to defeat 7.62X54R API. I have been unable to find anything on the net discussing tests on DS involving anything more powerful than 7.62X39 mild steel core.

I've kind of thrown my hat in the ring over on OPFOR. I also plan to address it at the MilBlog conference in Arlington this weekend.
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Old 05-02-2007, 18:07   #128
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proven to defeat 7.62X54R API.
.....after immersion in saltwater, a soak in diesel fuel, a soak in motor oil, 6 hours at 160 deg F, temp cycled between -25 deg F and 120 deg F, and cold soaked to -60 deg F for 6 hours.

Let's not forget the impact/drop test and the flame/melt drip test.

Armor conditioned to these standards must stop the specified AP threats 100% of the time.

The number of complete penetrations we are looking for after these tests is ZERO.

And yes, if you can pass these tests, we will accept it from the lowest bidder

There is more to Army body armor testing than what you might see on the Discovery Channel.

Karl
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Old 05-03-2007, 08:11   #129
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How about this dumbass?

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Now that the Corps has banned off-the-shelf gear as well, Staff Sgt. Taylor Cobb, the Corporals Course curriculum coordinator at Training and Education Command in Quantico, Va., said he’ll buy “a triple large set of cammies” and wear his Dragon Skin armor underneath if he deploys to a combat zone.

“I have the utmost confidence in that piece of gear,” he said.

After spending $2,000 on his Dragon Skin armor, Cobb placed it on a dummy and shot it with a .45-caliber pistol. The armor worked as advertised, so he said he put it on and — get this — shot himself in the stomach on purpose.

“It left a pretty nice bruise, but it didn’t even break the skin,” he said. “It works. But I wouldn’t try that with the [Modular Tactical Vest] the Corps gives. I’m not that trusting.”
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:44   #130
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How about this dumbass?
Darwin was right.

He should have shot himself in the nuts, just to complete the analogy.

TR
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:00   #131
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Originally Posted by Karl.Masters
.....after immersion in saltwater, a soak in diesel fuel, a soak in motor oil, 6 hours at 160 deg F, temp cycled between -25 deg F and 120 deg F, and cold soaked to -60 deg F for 6 hours.

Let's not forget the impact/drop test and the flame/melt drip test.

Armor conditioned to these standards must stop the specified AP threats 100% of the time.

The number of complete penetrations we are looking for after these tests is ZERO.

And yes, if you can pass these tests, we will accept it from the lowest bidder

There is more to Army body armor testing than what you might see on the Discovery Channel.

Karl
Funny how the Pinnacle Armor website does not post these "military" findings on their website. (These findings will hit the web soon I'm sure and when they do you will see them posted here.)

Funny how the actual inventor of Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin knew why Dragon Skin catastrophically failed and went as far to post that little FACT on his website;

The major flaw was not observing the Article One testing environmental conditioning protocol, which calls for the armor to withstand 165 degrees F for 6 hours. After five years of development and having the protocol in hand you would figure that the adhesive used to affix the tiles to the high strength fabric would be of the high temperature variety, it wasn't, and because of that these vests failed. OOPS! http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm

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Old 05-03-2007, 12:30   #132
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Originally Posted by Karl.Masters
.....after immersion in saltwater, a soak in diesel fuel, a soak in motor oil, 6 hours at 160 deg F, temp cycled between -25 deg F and 120 deg F, and cold soaked to -60 deg F for 6 hours.

Let's not forget the impact/drop test and the flame/melt drip test.

Armor conditioned to these standards must stop the specified AP threats 100% of the time.

The number of complete penetrations we are looking for after these tests is ZERO.

And yes, if you can pass these tests, we will accept it from the lowest bidder

There is more to Army body armor testing than what you might see on the Discovery Channel.

Karl
Do what the HRT did if it breaks down because of bad weather


Maybe everyone could have two sets of DS issued. The real world mission set and the training set. The FBI HRT had two sets for every cop. One set hung in a climate controlled room. This set was only used for real call outs. This preserved the Armor, so they thought. This was around 1992, right after Ruby Ridg.
The sniper team I was working with were the ones with eyes on when the one member shot that lady. They were very proud of that. Photos hanging on the walls. High speed presentation with vidio and all. They still had that post mission high. Month later I saw them all on CNN with their right hands in the air, not looking to happy.
Ok back to body Armor, I thought it was the most bazaar thing I ever saw. Ill admit it seemed kind of high speed to me at the time. The other set was training only but exactly the same. The set for real missions was also used for demonstrations. It was cleaner. Two of everything, pouches, Flex Ties, knives....etc
I didn't know what to say when they showed me this. Only thing I can come up with today is, they just had bad info or the person who ordered their Armor was an idiot. They might of been stuck with defective Armor. That broke down to easy but they had a whole lot of it. So this was how they used it instead of throwing it away.
But with their funding I highly doubt this. I really think some Lab Geek or Dentist told them to do it. Just misinformed like a lot of us at one time or another. Geek probably had stock in the company and figured out how to double the sales I wish I remembered what type it was.
I have asked former HRT members who were there close to that time frame. The three I have asked said they don't remember doing this "WE NEVER DID THAT, your confused" I know I'm not crazy because I confirmed my memory is correct by asking a former team member who was there with me. I also remember returning to Pananma and telling people about this practice in the AAR. Back then most people didn't know a whole lot about ballistic plates. Like me most thought this was kind of high speed. But not practical for our mission.
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Old 05-03-2007, 13:06   #133
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Do what the HRT did if it breaks down because of bad weather
That way when they get shot in a training accident (far more likely than anything happening on a callout) they can say "I've no idea why it failed; it's the same as our 'real world' kit".

Personally, I hated using body armor "of an unknown provenance". If it takes a hit or an unusual impact, replace it. That's cheap insurance. Do life cycle replacements in any event. I was always more worried about abuse, (something very likely with "training" equipment - because of mindset issues) e.g. people throwing the vest (with plates installed) off the back of vehicles or down from the lofts in the team rooms, than I was cosmetics and fair wear & tear. (How often have we seen people throw helmets?) Nothing like carelessness to compromise the effectiveness of a ceramic plate. Don't know if that ever was an issue (Karl?), but I do know we couldn't inspect the plates for compromise if they had been abused.

Can't believe that idiot would spend $2,000 of his own money on armor, shoot it, and still expect to use it afterwards. WTF was he thinking? Can any of you Marines/Marine sympathizers explain this for the rest of us? Certainly seems to reinforce a negative "jarhead" stereotype.

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Old 05-04-2007, 10:26   #134
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Personally, I hated using body armor "of an unknown provenance". If it takes a hit or an unusual impact, replace it. That's cheap insurance. Do life cycle replacements in any event.
Peregrino,

Army policy is to replace a plate that has been hit or damaged. If the plate is hit, turn it in and get a new one. Serviceability inspection procedures for the inserts are in the IBA user manual and in the clothing and individual equipment TM 10-8400-203-23:

"Inspection. (Army) Inspect the overall condition of the SAPI. (Marine Corps) Inspect the overall condition of the SAPI prior to each field evolution and once per day during field use. Check for rips or tears, surface cracks in the plate itself, or if the plate flexes and crunching sounds can be heard, or loose pieces can be heard inside plate when it is shaken."

And if you are in the box and are wearing black plates, you're wrong. Get the green ones.

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I was always more worried about abuse, (something very likely with "training" equipment - because of mindset issues) e.g. people throwing the vest (with plates installed) off the back of vehicles or down from the lofts in the team rooms, than I was cosmetics and fair wear & tear. (How often have we seen people throw helmets?) Nothing like carelessness to compromise the effectiveness of a ceramic plate. Don't know if that ever was an issue (Karl?), but I do know we couldn't inspect the plates for compromise if they had been abused.
Abuse is an issue. "Take care of your gear and it will take care of you" has never been more true. We could always issue steel plates for those who like to throw their kit around. What's a few extra pounds....This works well in most Eastern Bloc Armies, BTW, as I learned in Belgrade a couple years ago when I was checking out how the rest of the world builds body armor. Cheaper too.

What we are doing instead is continuing to issue the high dollar lightweight plates and using a mobile shelter with a digital x-ray inspection system to periodically inspect serviceability via non-destructive testing of the plates. We brought it to the FBNC post CIF in January and ran it through an operational assessment, testing a sample of 2,000 plates in the CIF. System is GTG and we are doing a demo at Fort Drum this summer when 10th Mountain elements rotate home. Our objectives are to provide a quick serviceability inspection method for the warfighter and calculate a combat consumption planning factor for the ESAPI inserts. We are working with the boys in the box to do an in-theater evaluation ASAP. SOCOM and Picatinny Arsenal helped get us up to speed on this, both organizations have some NDE experts that have considerable experience in this area. Thanks brothers-

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Can't believe that idiot would spend $2,000 of his own money on armor, shoot it, and still expect to use it afterwards. WTF was he thinking? Can any of you Marines/Marine sympathizers explain this for the rest of us? Certainly seems to reinforce a negative "jarhead" stereotype.
He's been watching way too much TV lately-probably Discovery Channel.

Hope his CO can keep this guy away from the hand grenade range.....
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:52   #135
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Karl - IIRC the operator inspection proceedures you cite are the same thing we had 5-6 years ago. Thanks for filling me/us in on the ND test capability. That's heartening news. Were you satisfied with the pass/fail rate for the 2000 plates tested at Bragg? Peregrino
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