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Old 04-03-2006, 11:19   #31
bost1751
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vests

Reaper and Peragrino hit on the head. I started skiing on the old Korean era stuff and my first time to the field in northern Maine in Feb my first and last time with the GI sleeping bag. Somewhere in the early 80's SF purchased off the shelf winter equipment modified to meet SF standards. A great move and a big money saver to those new to 10th Group.

I would like to think SF has continued to recognised the advantages of off the shelf purchases. They are numerous. The R&D by those companies is enormous and eliminates the outrageous cost to the government, along with a real procurement of the equipment. I have been away from SF world for several years. What I am gathering from this conversation, SF is still on the same wagon wheel the rest of the Army is. Everything is on a wagon wheel. As the wheel turns the same spokes come back around. A peice of ptentially life saving equipment is not something to toy around with. The govt has a system readily available to them and should use it to their advantge. Natic, like all government entities, impedes progress. the field soliers knows what is needed, listen to them.
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:22   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Have to agree.

The Army has a huge bureaucracy dedicated to T&Eing soldier equipment.

IMHO, it is slow, non-responsive, territorial, bureaucratic, probably ridden with graft, nepotism, and NIH syndrome, and not terribly good at listening to soldier input to give them what they need, much less what they want.

For example, it took them over 50 years to get away from non-break-away ski bindings, M-1950 pattern LBE, and Korean War-era cold weather gear. By the time they came up with new products, they were three more generations behind the COTS equivalent.

Meanwhile, the civilian outdoor industry has leapt decades ahead of the military in developing and fielding quality field products.

Based upon what I saw over almost 30 years, I think that the miltiary RDT&E community needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up.

TR
No kidding. I've opted to replace some critical issued items with better commercial equipment. The cost adds up, but if it gives me just that little extra edge in combat/survival it is probably worth it. Some of that old stuff is just comical. SMA Preston came out to the brigade and opened the floor for questions/suggestions/comments about uniforms/gear. Basically all he kept saying was that this is why it is how it is, and why it is gonna stay that way. Not very encouraging. I expected as much.

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Old 04-03-2006, 12:10   #33
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I always thought those f***ing feathers they put on top of our hrlmets sucked.

My great, great, great. . . . . grand father made custom sandles for the Romanlegionaires who could afford them.
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Old 04-04-2006, 10:25   #34
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Just got the order to stop wearing my EAGLE vest with SPEAR BALCS insert and issued SAPI plates. The order specifically stated that only the Army issued Interceptor is authorized.

I was under the impression that USASOC soldiers were authorized to wear SPEAR BALCS as an approved alternative and therefore exempt from this policy.
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Old 04-04-2006, 12:06   #35
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Dragon Skin

Reaper, I'm getting my gear together for a possible contract job in the sandbox. Dragon Skin comes highly recommended. I've found the website and got a pretty good handle on what I "Think" I need. Problem is they don't list prices. You said yours was $1500?? Not bad and what kinda coverage do you get for the price? I won't be doing PSD or dashing around like I did years ago. Mainly training troops and advising. Maybe some convoy security. Any recommendations? "Q".
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Old 04-04-2006, 12:52   #36
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AKO News - http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/print.php?story_id_key=8765

I think they would rather have the general public believe that the body armor is superior to all others than to actually have superior body armor.
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Old 04-04-2006, 16:50   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q
Reaper, I'm getting my gear together for a possible contract job in the sandbox. Dragon Skin comes highly recommended. I've found the website and got a pretty good handle on what I "Think" I need. Problem is they don't list prices. You said yours was $1500?? Not bad and what kinda coverage do you get for the price? I won't be doing PSD or dashing around like I did years ago. Mainly training troops and advising. Maybe some convoy security. Any recommendations? "Q".

That was a rhetorical "my" as in a soldier who has a set.

I believe that the Dragon Skin is likely pretty good, probably better than the issued armor, but is slightly heavier and much more expensive.

I would be concerned about any company that would sent you over to a combat zone without protective gear.

TR
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Old 04-17-2006, 04:04   #38
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Dragon Skin update

Quote:
Originally Posted by groundup
AKO News - http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/print.php?story_id_key=8765

I think they would rather have the general public believe that the body armor is superior to all others than to actually have superior body armor.
OK, The Fayetteville Observer is a rag. Read something below the fold on the front page and try and find the article in it's online edition. Beyond me this AM.

Anyway the AP is reporting that the tests are stalled because the maker is in a dispute over testing and how long the Army has the vests before testing them.

Hey, what? Do they good "bad" after a few weeks out of the bag?

Nearest link I could find was;

httl://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/NewsSearch?sb=-1&st=Dragon%20Skin

Somebody get a better link?

Pete

Last edited by Pete; 04-17-2006 at 04:41.
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Old 04-17-2006, 20:34   #39
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since no one's linked to this yet,
lightfighter.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/440107306/m/5161098802/p/1[/url]
pretty good thread on the topic, with someone from dragon skin participating.
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Old 04-20-2006, 19:04   #40
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If you don't have a LF login, then this article has information, videos, links etc.

defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=864[/url]
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Old 05-20-2006, 14:17   #41
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Experimental flexible armor fails Army testing

Man this is going to get sticky with these companies - the old back and forth on its good and it fails. What's next in this round. Wait which state will be funded for the next DoD order. That's why I wish Politics didn't get into the buying of equipment for us. I can't get the sure fire I want because the SOFMOD system had a rail light WTF no really please. Okay so G4 you say I can order really thing as a single item to make the light system that is 400.00 cheaper. Yes, your fuk stupid Sir.

Off my box but I found this today on MSNBC.

Military hoped high-tech Dragon Skin could make troops more mobile

AP - Updated: 9:45 p.m. ET May 19, 2006
WASHINGTON - The Army’s struggle to find a new, more flexible body armor was dealt a setback Friday when high-tech vests called Dragon Skin failed to pass military testing, a senior defense official said.

After three days of testing this week, the Army determined the body armor does not meet military specifications, said the official, who would not specify which tests the armor failed. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the results have not yet been released.

The Army paid about $170,000 to buy 30 sets of the armor for the testing.

Generally, during testing, various types of ammunition are fired at the vests, and the armor also may be subjected to extreme temperatures or environmental conditions. The tests were done by H.P. White, an independent ballistic testing lab in Street, Md.

The Army has expressed great interest in getting more flexible body armor. A principal complaint about the armor used by troops on the battlefield is that it is so heavy and inflexible it might lessen a soldier’s speed and agility. The current armor includes heavy ceramic plates in the front, back and sides.

The Dragon Skin testing was delayed initially by a dispute over testing conditions between the Army and Pinnacle Armor of Fresno, Calif., which makes the protective gear known as Dragon Skin.

Earlier this week, the Army announced it would carry out three days of testing, which signaled the dispute’s resolution. A request for comment from Murray Neal, Pinnacle Armor’s chief executive officer, was not immediately returned.

Neal previously has contended that his armor is high quality, and its “capabilities have been proven to be significant improvements over the current Army issue.”

He said he has nine years of ballistic data, both classified and unclassified, that show the armor taking over 40 rounds of ammunition from an AK-47, then another 150 rounds from a submachine gun, all at close range, without a failure
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Old 05-20-2006, 14:47   #42
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This is way out of my lane but,
Quote:
After three days of testing this week, the Army determined the body armor does not meet military specifications
Hell, I can't even tell if new underware is going to pass the test in 3 days. That has got to be a political decision because it just doesn't make sense.
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Old 05-20-2006, 15:12   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
I can't get the sure fire I want because the SOFMOD system had a rail light WTF no really please. Okay so G4 you say I can order really thing as a single item to make the light system that is 400.00 cheaper. Yes, your fuk stupid Sir.
VG:

Translate please.

TR
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Old 05-25-2006, 06:31   #44
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Update from Military.com

Army Tests Pinnacle Armor "Dragon Skin" Vests
Army News Service | May 19, 2006
The Army announced that PEO Soldier has contracted with Pinnacle Armor to purchase 30 of its latest body armor vests, known as “Dragon Skin,” for delivery no later than May 17.

The 30 production-representative vests will be delivered to H.P. White in Street, Md., for ballistic testing. HP White is the only National Institute of Justice-certified, independent, ballistic-testing laboratory in the United States capable of conducting the complete First Article Test. This is the same facility and ballistic testing standards used on the body armor currently fielded to Soldiers. Upon completion of the First Article Test -- which is a three-day test -- the Army will issue a press release stating the results.

All suppliers of Army body armor are required to pass the First Article Test. This is the same standard test conducted on the currently fielded body armor. Standard testing consists of a variety of ammunition and weapons fired on various size vests, under a range of conditions that replicate combat environments.



If “Dragon Skin” successfully completes First Article testing, it will advance to the second phase of testing. The Second Phase testing is conducted at Fort Benning, Ga., and consists of form, fit, function and operational suitability to meet Soldiers’ needs across a wide variety of combat tasks.
Sound Off...What do you think? Join the discussion.


Copyright 2006 Army News Service. All opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily reflect those of Military.com.
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Old 06-06-2006, 19:36   #45
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Talking

I was recently tasked by the Army to conduct the test of the 30 Dragon Skin SOV 3000 level IV body armor purchased for T&E referred to earlier in this thread. My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor.

I'm under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain.

I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing a SOV 3000 Dragon Skin - don't.

I do not recommend this design for use in an AOR with a 7.62x54R AP threat and an ambient temperature that could range to 120F.

I do however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents...
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