Unarmed SD Scenarios - Page 4

Michelle · 09-07-2005, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Michelle,

That is such a great point. My Professor (aka Sensi) used to say, "The best black belt in the fight is the one who isn't in the fight."

You know, Razor jokes about it and calls it the "best self-defense art there is"... the art of "avoidance-fu". I have studied hard in that art over the years.

That being said, this post has actually haunted me for the last 24 hours (thank you Tubbs! Making me think here!)... because I reached back into my years training at the Dojo/Kwoon and realized.... there was something very lacking in my training. We didn't address the "multiple-attacker" issue... really ever. I mean, in passing it was like "well, you double up on your moves for whatever is incomming", but that, at the end of the day is pathetic. Because there is a lot more involved here. You will be dealing with issues of timing... and multi-tasking.... and distraction. And we *never* did any real time drills with multiple attackers.... and that's not good. Although the above scenario given by Tubbs reminds me of the kinds of things a friend of mine who is a body guard in Guatemala deals with... that is KIDNAPPING scenarios, who's to say we wont someday face a 2 on 1 scenario... or even more? I have a cop friend that is helping me cull statistics right now on multiple attackers on female instances, but even if the stat is 1%, shouldn't we have a bow in our quiver for that 1%? And yet, with all the time I've put in, realistically, I dont. And that's not good.

I hope no one here was offended by my questions above. Team Sergeant tells me all the time "If you aren't asking questions, you aren't learning. You are simply retaining data." So sometimes I am a goof and I ask.

Bottom line here, is although I find the above scenario to be outside of what I or Maisy or the average female might have to deal with, the fact I am coming up empty with answers on how to deal with it tells me there is a big hole in my training.

This thread is invaluable. I hope people will keep contributing to it. It's making me think. And it's making me see things I haven't seen before. It's pointing out glaring deficits in my training.... and hopefully giving wonderful advice to others that are just starting their training. So Kyo, thank you VERY much for getting this ball rolling.

Maisy... in that SD class you just attended.... did they address any "multiple attacker" scenarios at all? Or was it all just 1 on 1.

And as a final note, the multiple attacker scenario is a main reason why I am not comfortable being "empty handed" at the end of the day. I can only aspire to someday being able to "getting the job done" with nothing at my disposal. But for now? No, not yet... not me.

m1

Maisy · 09-07-2005, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle

in that SD class you just attended.... did they address any "multiple attacker" scenarios at all?

Nope, no multiple attacker scenario's. Which, when i think about it, is a glaring hole.

Just in Sydney alone, every day a woman is faced with a multiple attacker situation. They are usually a group of young hoons, wandering the sidewalks and train stations, looking to harass women alone.

Most of these situations turn out ok for the woman, they are let go after being verbally abused or jostled, maybe groped a bit. Most people, seeing it happen, step around the group and continue on their way with their heads down. They are mostly never reported, and if they are, with police resources stretched to the limit, and no harm done other than a scare, are generally ignored or at the most "moved on".

Every once in a while, the attack turns serious.

When I think about the types of situations I have observed and encountered, in general I have found that it is most likely I would be attacked by someone I know and to some extent trust, less likely to be harassed and/or assaulted by a bored group of teen boys feeling like picking on lone women, and finally, least likely to be attacked by a single, unknown person.

I will state for the record that the SD seminar I attended was mainly concerned with teaching us how to escape from an attacker, and all movements taught ended with the command "and run!". The seminar also didn't cover knife attacks, attack where the bad guy grabs you by the upper arm, etc. There is only so much you can cover in 1 1/2 hrs. That's why I am starting the course this week.

Tonight will be my first night.

**Kyobanim** · 09-07-2005, 20:05

When addressing multiple attackers you have to remember, you can only do one thing at a time. If you try to deal with both BGs you will loose, badly. Pick one threat and deal with it, whether it's a complete takedown or just makking the guy back off. Then have at the other one. The idea is to break contact if you're in close and gain some space.

Never backup, always move side to side keeping both BGs in your front visual range. You don't know what's behind you, you might trip. Use your peripheral vision when moving.
Never turn your back to either one if you can help it.
Don't become decisively engaged with one unless you are confident of your situation and what you are going to do.
Use this time to plan your escape. If you hurt one of them bad enough the other just might balk and give you the time you need to get to safety.

A real important thing that people don't realize: CONTROL YOUR BREATHING! Sounds stupid, but in through the nose, out through the mouth. You'd be suprised how much this will calm you and allow you to use the best weapon you have, your brain.

Michelle, this thread was started to make people think, evaluate and share what you know. I'm sorry your instructors didn't address the multiple attacker scenario. It is something that most people don't address.

In this particular scenario it's good to know pressure points. There's a nice one under the arm about a third of the way down below the arm pit. Grab a handfull of that and you get loose. It also has a lingering pain if done hard enough, kinda reduces the usability of that arm.

A kick to the side of the knee will get you free enough to use it on one of them. Once free, a good old knife hand strike to the side or back of the neck will put one of them down for the count. (side of the neck has the capability of knocking a person out, back of the neck will break something)

aricbcool · 09-07-2005, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Once free, a good old knife hand strike to the side or back of the neck will put one of them down for the count. (side of the neck has the capability of knocking a person out, back of the neck will break something)

Fascinating. And I thought that only happened in the movies.

Smokin Joe · 09-07-2005, 21:23

I have a very good friend who has his own M.A. school in Southern California. He is a very talented black belt with a very good school.

Several years ago he was faced by 3 attackers. He turn and ran. About 100 or 200 yards away he hid in wait. First dude came around the corner and got knocked out. 2-3 seconds later second guy meet the same fate. A few more seconds the last guy (the original instigator) came wadeling around the corner saw his two friends K.O.'d and ran away.

The tactic was to draw out the attackers and deal with them one on one instead of dealing with the group.

When training on multiple attackers I like to stack the attackers. Stacking is getting them to trip over each other, run into each other, or get one in front of the other so you can hit the first guy into the second.

Dealing with 3 or more. Get the hell out of the middle, don't get swarmed, do everything you can to break contact, and run like hell.

**Pete** · 09-08-2005, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

When addressing multiple attackers you have to remember, you can only do one thing at a time. If you try to deal with both BGs you will loose, badly.

Remind the ladies that somebody is always the leader. It may not be the one who comes at you first but if you nail the leader first the other may back off.

Just my opinion but with two coming at you look at the faces and the eyes. The one who keeps checking the others location is not as sure about things as the one smiling at you and looking you dead in the eye.

**Pete** · 09-08-2005, 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Little on the small side to go around grabbin' people?

aricbcool · 09-08-2005, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Ok, I concur with everyone out there as far as kicks to the knees and shins and (if you're flexible enough) maybe even the back of the head.

I'd like to put forward the idea that if this doesn't work... spit.

The idea here is that the attackers are obviously trying to take you somewhere either more secluded (to avoid witnesses) or worse, to Oleg, the local Russian Mafia guy you owe all that money to.

So, being unable to get out of the hold through pain, I say spit in their faces and hair in an attempt to piss them off enough to stop and attempt to beat you up.

This would get you out of the hold and possibly give you a fighting/running chance.

Thoughts?

--Aric

**Kyobanim** · 09-08-2005, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by aricbcool

Ok, I concur with everyone out there as far as kicks to the knees and shins and (if you're flexible enough) maybe even the back of the head.

I'd like to put forward the idea that if this doesn't work... spit.

The idea here is that the attackers are obviously trying to take you somewhere either more secluded (to avoid witnesses) or worse, to Oleg, the local Russian Mafia guy you owe all that money to.

So, being unable to get out of the hold through pain, I say spit in their faces and hair in an attempt to piss them off enough to stop and attempt to beat you up.

This would get you out of the hold and possibly give you a fighting/running chance.

Thoughts?

--Aric

Anything that works is right. I can see where this would work, at least most of the time.

Tubbs · 09-08-2005, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle

Tubbs, I mean NO disrespect here, but am trying to get this into context....

First of all, I have to ask (and I am NOT being a SA, I swear)... why? Why would this happen to someone?

To adress your qustions,

1. I chose a major city because I am from Boston and when one lives in a major city one frequently finds oneself out after dark.

2. Looking at a cell phone because a lot of people that have cell phones use them religiously and I have seen my civilian friends use them and their SA dissapears almost immediately upon pulling one out (I personally refuse to own a cell phone. I hate them).

3. We are in a thread of self-defense scenarios and in the spirit of creativity I thought that I'd try something interesting. This was a scenario that my sensei liked to use alot and I just jazzed it up for the posting.

4. I did live across from an "auto body shop" that was operated by Russians.

I hope that answers your questions Michelle. I agree that you should not put yourslef in situation where this might happen, but most of the scenarios in this thread could be avoided by not putting yourself in a bad situation.

**Razor** · 09-08-2005, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle

You know, Razor jokes about it and calls it the "best self-defense art there is"... the art of "avoidance-fu". I have studied hard in that art over the years.

Just to set the record straight, the term was 'avoid-fu', and the first time I saw it was in a post by PS.com's own Guy Jones on another forum. Credit where credit is due.

Michelle · 09-08-2005, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Just to set the record straight, the term was 'avoid-fu', and the first time I saw it was in a post by PS.com's own Guy Jones on another forum. Credit where credit is due.

I apologize for the misquote. Thank you for setting the record straight.

m1

Michelle · 09-08-2005, 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

To adress your qustions,

1. I chose a major city because I am from Boston and when one lives in a major city one frequently finds oneself out after dark.

Thank you! Understood.... I come from a city where we do not "walk" about at night for the most part... I think that is where I was having a disconnect... It's a geographical situation... one I realize is not prevelant with most major cities.. sorry!

Quote:

2. Looking at a cell phone because a lot of people that have cell phones use them religiously and I have seen my civilian friends use them and their SA dissapears almost immediately upon pulling one out (I personally refuse to own a cell phone. I hate them).

Cell phones... they can be your best friend or your worst enemy. Can you use it without sacraficing your focus to it?...that is a major trick.... really.

Quote:

3. We are in a thread of self-defense scenarios and in the spirit of creativity I thought that I'd try something interesting. This was a scenario that my sensei liked to use alot and I just jazzed it up for the posting.

You are right. I was out of line. I apologize.

Quote:

4. I did live across from an "auto body shop" that was operated by Russians.

I hope that answers your questions Michelle. I agree that you should not put yourslef in situation where this might happen, but most of the scenarios in this thread could be avoided by not putting yourself in a bad situation.

You are of course, correct. Again, I am sorry if I took this "off track" I just am very invested it the "stop it before it starts" mind-set for women.

With respect!

m1

Tubbs · 09-09-2005, 18:59

Michelle,

Thank you, but there is no need to apologize. Those were honest questions. I understand where a lot of them came from too. I now live in a rural "God fearing" area and people here think that I am crazy because I look inside my car before I get in it and I check my house to make sure it is still locked when I come home.

Different people from different areas deal with different threats.
No harm, no foul.

Michelle · 09-09-2005, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Michelle,

Thank you, but there is no need to apologize. Those were honest questions. I understand where a lot of them came from too. I now live in a rural "God fearing" area and people here think that I am crazy because I look inside my car before I get in it and I check my house to make sure it is still locked when I come home.

Different people from different areas deal with different threats.
No harm, no foul.

Thank you for being so gracious about my being obtuse. I would also like to put a quick thought out there for you... it is not just a matter of "different areas"... it's gender relational too. Bottom line is, you, as a man, have had a very different world at your feet. That is, men don't often have to "worry" about walking around alone, or at night. There are very specific "circumstances" that put you at risk, but overall, you guys have a brilliant freedom to come and go as you please. The incidence of assault, rape, etc., is very low for the XYs.... accordingly, you think and move about differently than the average XX. When was the last time you walked to your car, alone, at night, and even thought in passing you would/could be victimized. Now lets turn that table. Imagine if you had to worry about it almost every day. It's insidious for us, and perhaps lends itself to a certain paranoia.

Maybe we need another thread (so I don't inadvertantly stomp all over the integrity of this one! lol.

Maybe an avoid-fu thread would be good. The proactive approach... tips of avoidance. It's important, but doesn't belong here... because this thread is all about once the SHTF.... and you were spot on with your scenario... and I went out into left field.

Thank you again for a VERY thought provoking post, and for being a good sport about MY bad manners.

m1