Unarmed SD Scenarios - Page 3

Tubbs · 08-31-2005, 13:32

Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

**Kyobanim** · 08-31-2005, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

By Hook you under the armpits do you mean grab your pits with a hand or in the crook of their elbow? It makes a difference.

Huey, I see a trend. Were you kicked in the balls as a child?

08-31-2005, 19:54

Interesting thread.

Thanks for starting it Kyo.

FrontSight

Michelle · 08-31-2005, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by aricbcool

Alright, I think this would be Scenario 4?

The BG twists your right arm up behind your back (classic bully style) while taking his left arm and securing a choke hold from behind, leaning back to get you off balance. Mutters something like "I want that milk money..."

Go...

First of all... if someone ever said anything to me about "milk money" the braying laughter from me that would ensue *might* throw him off.....

Pivot, left elbow. Deep and hard. (whilst still laughing mind you).... Elbow strike will cause him to pitch forward. Head-butt backward .... foot stomp... pivot, groin....break the knee outbackward if possible (Kyo, do we STILL have to be unarmed through these scenarios?) Just wondering....

m1

**Kyobanim** · 08-31-2005, 21:25

Quote:

(Kyo, do we STILL have to be unarmed through these scenarios?) Just wondering....

Yes. If we give you guys guns and knives it's no fun.

BTW, I like your tactic. Why wouldn't you go for the knee while pivoting? Just curious.

I just had a thought. Everyone, if you see a problem with what someone is posting, question it. Everything doesn't work for everybody. We're all different shapes and sizes.

Smokin Joe · 09-01-2005, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Bite an ear off, to get a hand free, other dude gets two fingers in 1 eye socket all the way to my second knuckle. Now that both hands are free I will assess to see who needs a little more love and go from there.

....btw, I'm not much of a runner. YMMV

Trip_Wire (RIP) · 09-01-2005, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Bite an ear off, to get a hand free, other dude gets two fingers in 1 eye socket all the way to my second knuckle. Now that both hands are free I will assess to see who needs a little more love and go from there.

....btw, I'm not much of a runner. YMMV

Damn! As an FOG I might have a problem with the biting, my luck, my upper or lower dentures or maybe both would come out when they jerked back in pain. I'd be out a couple of thousand dollars in dentures. That might be more then I'd loose if they robbed me of other things I might have. I usually don't carry that much cash.

Now that foot stomp (with my size 14s and the elbows and fingers that all sounds great!

**Kyobanim** · 09-01-2005, 13:55

Quote:

Damn! As an FOG I might have a problem with the biting, my luck, my upper or lower dentures or maybe both would come out when they jerked back in pain. I'd be out a couple of thousand dollars in dentures. That might be more then I'd loose if they robbed me of other things I might have. I usually don't carry that much cash.

Good thing I was only drinking water when I read that!

Michelle · 09-01-2005, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Yes. If we give you guys guns and knives it's no fun.

I'm sorry... I should have clarified. I didn't mean "common" weapons.. I meant "objects at one's disposal"... ie. Purse, or flashlight (torch to Maisy) with a sharpened bevel....

Quote:

BTW, I like your tactic. Why wouldn't you go for the knee while pivoting? Just curious.

Becuase I am not confident enough in my proficiency to "find it/feel it" necessarily without "seeing it". I will try as a last resort to go there, but still rely a lot on sight rather than spatially "knowing". Still working on it...... forever... never "done"......

m1

Seth · 09-02-2005, 09:32

Self-defense discussions often evolve around techniques and tools (weapons). To my mind the critical missing element is tactical context.

Take for instance the context of criminal assault against a citizen:

Context of criminals:

1. Criminals don't look for sporting fights, they look for easy prey. Thus, they will use methods that provide advantage to their criminal goals.

They use weapons. They use deception and ruses for surprise attack. They attack at close range. Multiple attackers.

Context of defenders:

Physical ability or disability. Special Forces Trooper as compared to 105 pound female. How about 25 year old male as compared to 75 year-old male; Do the same self-defense techniques hold context? Place this context against the parameters of the criminal's victim selection, and metric of the problem emerges.

Disparity ( and justification) of force within legal context:

Special Forces Trooper using contact weapon against single unarmed Criminal, will have difficulty articulating justification of force.

105 pound female using blade against unarmed large male attacker, will stand both a better chance of surviving the fight, as well as articulating justified self-defense in legal context.

Justification of Preemptive force: A tenet of all combat -- First Strike. Good to have especially in criminal self-defense, but how to effect?. Contextual pre-engagement tactics are critical in understanding justified preemptive force.

And, of course the macro context of soldier on a battlefield vs, citizen self-defense, can totally re-frame tactic and technique.

Kyo,

I know you framed your topic for discussion of technique, and I do not fault that. But, underscoring tactical context helps in properly framing technique and training for individuals, within the context of their most likely combats.

Many so called "Reality Based" Self defense courses pay lip-service to "Reality", but they don't train in such areas as pre-engagement tactics and unknown contact management. I'm not knocking good technique -- just trying bring awareness to tactical context in self defense.

-Seth

hemi5p · 09-04-2005, 21:56

seth thats some good information, i always ask myself "what would i do if blah blah got in my face, what would i do if he pulled a knife!?" its something I do when I'm bored

since the knife situation would most likely occur in a classroom setting, I always end of having myself pick up a chair (4 legged student chair) and try to tie up the arm with the knife then move in and lock his knife arm, and if possible break his fingers

the following situation happened to me, I don't know that anyone will care but I guess it's some real life experience, kind of...

You're in a town on a lake standing outside of a deli with 2 other people, your brother carl who's 5'11", scrawny, studious, and can't fight worth a lick and your east-side beat'm up friend (BJ), waiting for your grandpa to come pick you up and take you home, you yourself are 16 3/4 years old, 5'8", 145lbs, strong, you lift everyday, you do crunches everyday, youre confident and know when you get mad you can make people hurt, BJ is equally as tough as you are, Carl is worthless in a fight because he wont fight

a car drives by full of punk locals, with a chick in the backseat, and they wave, no big deal

the car comes around again and they wave again, this time mocking us and making faces, your east-side buddy flips them off

the car comes back around into the parking lot 30ft from you, parks, and 4 boys and a chick get out and walk over

the build of the 4 boys is as follows:

1 is 5'10", fat, he was the driver, looks 17
1 is 5'8", skinny, you can tell he won't/can't fight (most likely), looks 16 oldest
1 is 5'9", a more mature looking face, you can tell hes at least 17
1 is 5'7", skinny, small, and looks like no threat at all
the girl is some brunette skanky looking type with makeup on, most likely not a threat

they walk up and the fat one says "you guys gotta problem?" striding quickly like hes hot-shit

the others follow

your east-side friend says "only if you do", they get within 10ft and stop, the mature looking kid steps forward and says, "well ill fight, shit, lets get this over with" *steps forward and takes off shirt, spins around, he has 2 tattoos on his back, they dont look like prison tattoos*", the kid doesn't have any noticeable muscle mass, hardly noticeable abs, his triceps dont show, his back is flat and his shoulders lack that muscly look, maybe he was a wrestler last year... or something? hes lost his muscle if he was

what do you do?

what ended up happening to us was when he took his shirt off and spun around, i took that as a sign of weakness because he did it solely to show off his tattoos, to try and intimidate us, i laughed at him and his friends said "that aint no joke!", i laughed again and then the little runt kid took off shirt and was like "wanna brawl!" which was hilarious, my east-side friend (BJ) and I started laughing our asses off, and his own friends laughed at him, carl (my skinny bro) was still looking like he was about to cry, then they turned around and left

it was also apparent to me that the mature looking kid (and the rest of them for that matter) were putting on a show for their little skank, so I decided i wouldn't strike preemptively or ask BJ how we would fight them or do anything that might provoke further response from them, I (and BJ too really) decided to let them put on their tough-guy show then leave

so thats the story of Phil's almost-a-fight, if I had to weigh the odds, I think BJ and I would've been facing the Fat kid and the mature looking kid, i dont think the other 2 boys wouldve fought, also, if I started to get wailed on, I think carl would jump in and flap his arms around, so I think we would've won, but you never know...

hope someone learned something from it, if I did anything stupid tell me please, the reason we didnt run was because our grandpa was late and was supposed to be there any minute (not that we wouldve ran unless they pulled a weapon on us)

oh yeah and tripwire, I think you should invent in some Fixodent-CQB, just in case

Maisy · 09-04-2005, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemi5p

the girl is some brunette skanky looking type with makeup on, most likely not a threat

Don't ever disregard the woman.

My OH got into a similar situation, about the same age, same BS posturing.

The only punch thrown was from the girl. She simply walked up to him and hit him. He's a big guy, and was back then too. He says he was so stunned (not expecting it), he simply stood there, looking at her blankly. She was expecting to put him on the ground, and when he didn't, she took off, and the rest of the guys basically followed.

Had he been a bit smaller and she put him down, things could have gotten a lot uglier fast.

The times they are a changin'. Don't automatically assume that just because a woman is smaller/looks weaker, that she is not the most aggressive one in the bunch.

Tubbs · 09-06-2005, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

By Hook you under the armpits do you mean grab your pits with a hand or in the crook of their elbow? It makes a difference.

Sorry, about that and sorry it took me a while to respond.
Grabbed the armpit with their hands.

Michelle · 09-06-2005, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Tubbs, I mean NO disrespect here, but am trying to get this into context....

First of all, I have to ask (and I am NOT being a SA, I swear)... why? Why would this happen to someone?

Are you involved with the cartel? (and when I say "you" here, I mean that generically). Maybe a friend of someone in the Russian mafia? This scenario has certain "things" attatched to it 95% of the time. Who are your enemies? And how have you made them? And if you have made them, you ought be aware.....That being said:

To clarify: the whole 2 on 1 scenario scares the bejeesus out of me... it's a hard one to conquer.... I don't have much training in that regard.... and honestly, it is bothersome to me. But at the same time.....

Issue #1: Why are you on a street after dark being inattentive enough to be looking at your cell phone for a number? You might as well be wearing headpones and an iPod with a tattoo on your forehead saying "pick ME!"

Issue #2: "Suddenly" two men run up on either side of you. Again. SA has failed at this point. Why oh why are you in this position to begin with?

Resolution: No idea. Leave the com open on that cell phone for starters... at least they can bloody well hear what is going on and start a tower trace...

#3 : You have legs. Use them. A left leg for the dude on the left, a right leg for the dude on the right. Knees are inherently weak. Take them if you can. I don't care how old they are or what color they are... their knees are made of the same stuff. And for god's sake remember to breath.

But again it all boils down to, why were you there in the first place. That was the biggest mistake #1. I wish I could emphasize NOT being in a position to begin with. If I could write a book on what to do to keep yourself safe, it would not be impressive. It would not have any significant techniques or moves or silver bullets. It would be so ho-hum. So it would never sell. Because it would be all about stopping it... avoiding the game before it ever starts.

Sorry if that's a groove kill. I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to impart practical ... rather than sensational.

Tubbs, it's a great drill... and a hard one to handle. I would just like to see people avoiding it before it ever went down.

But if it DID go down, what is the answer on this one? Tubbs? Kyo?

m1

Smokin Joe · 09-06-2005, 23:35

Michelle,

That is such a great point. My Professor (aka Sensi) used to say, "The best black belt in the fight is the one who isn't in the fight."