Bragg MMA and BJJ Team

[H2H]

Originally Posted by incommin

in 24 years of service, I never used it or talked to another soldier who used it...... so I ask the question....... how often do we now close with an enemy soldier and go at it hand to hand?

We have to look beyond "closing the distance with an enemy soldier". The Army actually tracks as many H2H situations as possible from Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Many of the AAR's are from SF units. I have read and heard many of them. The last number I saw was somewhere in the 1000's of all the AAR's with H2H fighting. How many times do soldiers put there hands on a LN? At a VCP? At any kind of check point?

We are very often within "Combatives" range of LN's. To better illustrate my point, an example...

Hypothetically speaking, we (1 Squad Plus straps) are at a VCP in the middle of a decent sized village, Eastern Afghanistan, near the Pakistan border. Not a lot of people like us too much here, and there have been a string of issues in the area lately. Are ROE's are a lot more strict then they should be, but they are what they are. There are at least a couple hundred LN's roaming around, watching, etc. So, a LN, just being a moron, not doing it on purpose, rides his bike right thru the VCP. Shooting him is not an option. MACP here we come. Hypothetically, he is grabbed off the bike with a Rear Naked Choke, and quickly put unconcious. All the LN's are waiting to see what was going to happen to decide how to react. The guy on the bike is searched and is pulled off to the side to be awakened.

Not the best example, but still a good example of a situation where ROE was restricted, deadly force was not an option, and a non-lethal technique was used.

[H2H]

"This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. If killing the enemy is not an option then we aren't in combat."

I could not answer that, we would have to get in touch with G.W.B. for the reasons for the very strict ROE's. While it may not make any sense, it is the reality of todays deployments.

Soldiers are being put in situations where lethal actions are not an option. That being said, we have to have a way to train these soldiers, and that way is MACP.

Fairbairn talked about how the program grew over time continuing to add different techniques. So, the answer is yes, I think he discussed other options and made changes along the way. Anyone invloved in teaching a program has to be open enough to allow the chance that his techniques can be improved by outside forces, thus the reason I incorporate techniques from older manuals as well.

[H2H]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Just a reminder for the civilians reading this thread:

Some of the techniques discussed here, when used on another civilian, will most likely result in jail time. If you learn them, you had better also learn control, and the appropriate time to use them. I would also recommend a good lawyer be kept on retainer.

That is all.

I have seen a lot of threads on MACP on the web, and this is the best one I have seen so far. A lot of good points and information.

I know I keep saying this, but take 5 days out of your time and check out a Level I class if you get the chance. I honestly think it will change your mind.

[Kyobanim]

Actually, I've been teaching the Army combatives for the last 5 years. That's been the basis for self defense taught in the 2 schools I've taught in. They are just Jujitsu, boxing and ground fighting with a little hapkido thrown in for joint locks and controls.

This should be a heads up: If I can legally teach this to civilians and know that they won't get into any real trouble, then the Army needs to kick it up a few notches.

I was suprised when I got my hands on the combatives FM and saw that it was the same thing that I've been teaching, (substitued weapons for brooms and sticks).

I agree that h2h should be taught, I just don't see that traditional martial arts be they 'adjusted' or whatever, should be taught.

[Bill Harsey]

Yurk,
Good topic for consideration. I spent some time around Col. Rex Applegate and might relate some of his overall concepts about training if asked but I don't think I know anything he didn't put in print somewhere.

oh yeah, Welcome aboard.

[H2H]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Yurk,
Good topic for consideration. I spent some time around Col. Rex Applegate and might relate some of his overall concepts about training if asked but I don't think I know anything he didn't put in print somewhere.

oh yeah, Welcome aboard.

Sir,

Thanks for the welcome.

I would love to hear anything about Col. Applegate. I am a huge fan of "Kill or Get Killed" and have read a lot about many of the things he did with William Fairbairn. I read a lot about the "Defendu" system as well, and again, I am a big supporter of parts of the system. Any stories you have or would be willing to tell would be greatly apprieciated. I am sure many people would be interested, with or without a prior knowledge of Col. Applegate.

Yurk

[kachingchingpow]

This is an excellent thread.

I’ve trained in western boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Kali, JKD, Shotokan, and yes a drum roll please TKD, in one way or another for most of my life.

BJJ’s real roots have obviously been overshadowed by the UFC, MMA PPV events, and the rules that they impose. That jiu-jitzu was developed in ancient Japan lacking the lethality to actually kill someone has been fostered by the modern sport phenomena. The Gracies started to put a more lethal polish on the system some 70 years ago, but also welcomed the idea of competition, and invited any style to compete. Vale Tudo tournaments were happening for many years in Brazil prior to arrival in the U.S., and there weren’t many rules. System on system martial arts were not taken seriously elsewhere prior to the early UFC’s. I’d bet that if our early combatives founders were exposed to what Helio Gracie was doing in Brazil back in the 40’s and 50’s you’d see more than a touch of it in what they developed.

Competition enhances situational awareness, and confidence. Prior to my daughter fighting in the NAGA tournament here in Atlanta a few years ago, she wondered why I was “forcing” her to compete. I put it in terms I hoped she could understand. You can place a saddle on a fence rail, jump up on it, say “gidde-up” pretending your riding a horse, or you saddle up a real horse and see if you can ride. Sparring with your regular crowd is one thing, taking that skill to the mat and testing it against someone you’ve never met is another… more so mentally than physically. Doing so with regularity is a form of conditioning in and of itself, and is often a requirement for advancement. Parameters obviously have to be set that make things relatively safe… but there is still an element of risk, and the mental conditioning is invaluable.

Frankly the Asian masters who’ve setup shop in just about every strip mall in America have done more to stifle the development of effective fighting systems than not. Their unwavering adherence to their style, traditions, training techniques, and basic “respect my authority”-“don’t think outside the box” attitude have lead to their eventual downfall. Bruce Lee recognized that back in the early 70’s, wrote volumes about it, and developed a system around the necessity of open mindedness called JKD… probably the first documented mixed martial art.

One of the major distinctions that I’ve found between jiu-jitzu and other systems, is that the majority of the system is focused on the “now what do you do?” scenario. These scenarios assume that “something” has compromised your advantage and now you have to fight from a disadvantaged position, to a position where a lethal technique can be employed. Many systems that I’ve trained in don’t focus on that very heavily, if at all. That focus is also what makes BJJ very effective for people of small stature against a larger stronger person.

That kudos being said, strict BJJ leaves one critical piece on the table, and not many schools seem to focus on it, until they move toward MMA. Multiple attacker scenarios. There is no way in hell you’d want to go to the ground unless it’s unavoidable. You’ll die. Between the potential of being kicked and stomped, to being cut by broken glass and other nasty things, it’s just not the place to be. Throw in an effective striking technique to complement BJJ, and add a weapons system… namely Muay Thai, JKD and Kali, and you have a very round system with lethal capabilities, that will allow you to work in every range from kicking to rolling on the ground.

Competitions in the form of “smokers” can enhance the striking aspect of ones tool kit, but unless you’ve got a Dog Brothers camp close by, Kali sparring pretty much has to be limited to soft sticks and rubber knives. That being said, relentlessly training Kali, JKD, Cistari, Applegate, Fairburn and the like techniques develop neural pathways that have a dramatic effect on your ability to react effectively with very little hesitation.

[NousDefionsDoc]

You do know that Gracie juijitsu isn't really jujitsu right?

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Yurk

Hypothetically speaking, we (1 Squad Plus straps) are at a VCP in the middle of a decent sized village, Eastern Afghanistan, near the Pakistan border. Not a lot of people like us too much here, and there have been a string of issues in the area lately. Are ROE's are a lot more strict then they should be, but they are what they are. There are at least a couple hundred LN's roaming around, watching, etc. So, a LN, just being a moron, not doing it on purpose, rides his bike right thru the VCP. Shooting him is not an option. MACP here we come. Hypothetically, he is grabbed off the bike with a Rear Naked Choke, and quickly put unconcious. All the LN's are waiting to see what was going to happen to decide how to react. The guy on the bike is searched and is pulled off to the side to be awakened.

I may be showing my neo-Neanderthal roots here, but my solution to the above problem is knock the guy off the bike (easy to do, and will also take a little of the fight out of him in the first place), have a few guys flex-cuff him (which doesn't require an armbar or choke to accomplish), execute the search, explain how close to being killed he came by being careless, then release him. The onlookers see that VCP security enforcement is serious business and infractions are taken very seriously, all the while giving the original violator a physical lesson he'll not soon forget, but not causing serious permanent injury to him. All the above not requiring any special BJJ-based groundfighting skill.

To be truthful, I'd be more concerned that the guy performing the rear naked choke hold in your scenario is familiar with the choke, but when you add in the adrenaline, stress, and angles and force vectors involved with pulling the guy off a moving bike while trying to apply a choke at the same time will result in an unintentional broken neck (a la the rear strangle takedown).

[H2H]

Originally Posted by Razor

To be truthful, I'd be more concerned that the guy performing the rear naked choke hold in your scenario is familiar with the choke

I could not agree more I like the way you think!

Lucky that soldier had some MACP training.

[kachingchingpow]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

You do know that Gracie juijitsu isn't really jujitsu right?

Had it not been for the fact that Count Koma moved back to Japan after teaching Carlos, BJJ would never have been born. It wasn't until after he moved back that Carlos began teaching his brothers, and evolving the system in ways the Japanese would most likely never have.

(For the sake of disclosure... I'm not ranked in BJJ. I have trained and studied it a good bit under some well known people though. Helio and his grandsons (Ricksons kids) give seminars where I used to train, as well as Pedro Sauer. I boxed as a kid and have trained under some of the top Muay Thai folks around... Alex Gong, Bunkerd Faphimai, and Ganyao at the Fairtex Gym in San Francisco. Just pointing this out so that I'm not perceived as something I'm not... I'm just a fella that doesn't get to excited about belts and likes to bang heads in the gym some. I've learned over the years that one's abilities are more of a determining factor in which system works for them. After having spent years strictly striking, I've enjoyed dabbling in several other styles (BJJ, Kali, and JKD) filling in gaps where I think they exist.)

[Robertson]

Originally Posted by incommin

"in 24 years of service, I never used it or talked to another soldier who used it...... so I ask the question....... how often do we now close with an enemy soldier and go at it hand to hand?

MSG Pryor had to use it in Afghanistan when he entered a room, so I'm guessing at somepoint one of us will have to use it.
http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3653


My brother is currently about to enter Ranger school in January and RTB is saying they are changing things around a bit they said instead of doing combatives in the sand, they are now going to be doing MOUNT Scenarios. When you enter a room your weapon will 'jam' and you have to close with the enemy.

When I attended combatives school they kept saying - "the soldier who wins the fight is person who's friend shows up with a gun first." I'm not sure how true this may be...


-Robertson

[Bill Harsey]

Yurk,
I had the privilege of many meetings, traveling and working with Col. Rex Applegate over a 14 year period.
One of the training facilities that was built under his direction during World War Two was called the "House of Horrors' and was the very first military shooting house built to train firearms tactics. The reason for the name was that is was designed to induce a high stress level to the candidate while moving and shooting through it.

Hang with me here, I have a point to all this.

Historically martial arts were not designed to use against other people of the same training starting from a face to face position. When people trained in martial arts fight against one another, most recognize that this does not represent what fighting will be like when faced with someone who has no training but is very determined to do anything to win. A common example, the street fight.

Since searching room to room is of interest in some training, I think it would be quite possible to make a mock building with rooms and halls and lot's of blind corners that could be fitted (or not) with matts wrestling style, for training what it's like to have to go hand to hand in full combat gear when the threat appears out of seemingly nowhere.

You guys could have your own 21st Century "House of Horrors".

[H2H]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Yurk,
I had the privilege of many meetings, traveling and working with Col. Rex Applegate over a 14 year period.
One of the training facilities that was built under his direction during World War Two was called the "House of Horrors' and was the very first military shooting house built to train firearms tactics. The reason for the name was that is was designed to induce a high stress level to the candidate while moving and shooting through it.

Hang with me here, I have a point to all this.

Historically martial arts were not designed to use against other people of the same training starting from a face to face position. When people trained in martial arts fight against one another, most recognize that this does not represent what fighting will be like when faced with someone who has no training but is very determined to do anything to win. A common example, the street fight.

Since searching room to room is of interest in some training, I think it would be quite possible to make a mock building with rooms and halls and lot's of blind corners that could be fitted (or not) with matts wrestling style, for training what it's like to have to go hand to hand in full combat gear when the threat appears out of seemingly nowhere.

You guys could have your own 21st Century "House of Horrors".

Mr Harsey,

You are ahead of your time...

One of the things I teach here is a MAC version of Advanced CQB training. Using simunition rounds, a team will stack on the door, enter the building, continue to search, and we will randomly place a soldier with a Full Blauer Suit on in a short room. We set up different senerios where the soldier in the suit will either grap the muzzle as soon as they enter the room, or we will force the first person in the door to have a weapon jam, etc. Using MAC training, instead of taking a knee and completing "SPORTS", we teach to the soldiers to close the distance with the enemy and drive his muzzle thru the enemy skull, Bronco Stomp Him, Butstock to the head, etc. With the Blauer Suit we can do this at 100%.

I think the senario training would make Col. Applegate proud (I think NDD would be into it too )

Yurk

[CPTAUSRET]

[QUOTE=Yurk]

Yurk:

Interesting thread, you obviously believe in what you teach.