Bragg MMA and BJJ Team - Page 2

H2H · 11-25-2006, 21:56

Wow..that was long. Give me a second to respond...

H2H · 11-25-2006, 22:40

Alright, I am going to start at the top, and just make comments along the way down the post...

1) Please keep in mind the FM is VERY outdated right now, but should be officially approved and made public soon. All courses are taught to the new standard, it's just the Army is a little behind on approving the FM.

2) "That takes a great deal more training time than units will allocate.." You may be surprised at how many soldiers train Army Combatives on their own. I am always surprised here at Bragg, that every time I go into the main Gym, there are at least 10 guys doing MACP stuff. Part of that is on the units though. If the SGM's, 1SG's , CO, etc. make it a priority, then Joe will train it (or at least his COC will make him). Here at Bragg, at Batt. formations, Company formations, etc. the Commander will pull out a couple random soldiers in front of everyone and ask them to show a specific move from Level I. If they don't know it, the Team LDR, Squad LDR, and PLT SGT are in his office soon after. Embarrassment and extra duty are powerful tools to motivate soldiers.

3) "So, the likelyhood that a soldier would need more than perhaps the most basic of ground fighting skills isn't very likely at all..." - Lets look at this from a little different perspective. For the regular line soldier, everytime he is at a VCP or on a secuity patrol thru town, is an opportunity that a completely compliant situation could become non-compliant. When killing the LN is not an option, it makes sense to have some training to deal with a situation. Remember, we are not just talking ground fighting, but as much as anything else, we are talking about training a mindset.

4) The initial training for all soldiers should be given in basic training. I can tell you that I got only about 2 hours of training in my basic. It was fairly new to ITB at the time.

5) "Level 4 NCOs aren't really focusing on training troops" - Most everything to this point is correct, except for this statement. Let's use the 82nd as an example, though we are far from the only unit set-up like this. I returned from AFGN in March and soon after was moved to Division as the NCOIC of Combatives. I am a Level IV and my job is to teach MACP to all soldiers here on Fort Bragg. My schedule looks basically like this: Level I (1 Week), then Level II (2 Weeks), then a week off, then do it again.

Not only do I teach Level I and Level II, but I also run PT programs for units when they request it, I run SGT's time in the afternoon when requested, I run "Self-Defense" classes for FRG programs, I run all Division and Post Combatives Tourneys, I track and keep up with all soldier certifications and on and on. Some of the things are part of my job and some of them I volunteer to do to help the program.

6) "This NCO is responsible for the training of up to 800 soldiers in Level 1 skills only, and so is usually at the E-7 level" - Keep in mind, the way the program is build is on the "Train the Trainer" program. Which means, the Level III is only required to keep an eye on his Level II's (Company Reps) and those company reps then keep an eye on the training for the platoons, squads, etc. That Level III will also assist the unit level instructor when he completes a Level I MACP course. Most of the time, the Level IV does all the certification courses, and the Level III's do the continuing training.

7) Unit Costs are not as bad as you would think. MACP provides a "Kit" thru one of those Army Acronym Units. It provides everything a Post could need to support the soldiers in MACP. Most units already have mats from the support of Wrestling. The only other needs are the TDY to send the soldier to Benning to be certified in Level III and Level IV, which at the end of the day is about $5k. A unit could get a new program off the ground next week for about $5k and a NCO, if they did not have a dedicated building.

Lastly, again, I really suggest getting into a Level I course if you get the opportunity. I compare it to conversations I have with friends about SERE. I am constantly told "Man, it is impossible to put into words some of the things that SERE taught me". Not to compare the 2 courses at all, but MACP is similar in the mindset. It is much easier to understand all of the things gained from the course by attending it.

Thanks,

**Razor** · 11-26-2006, 01:05

Thanks for the info. Do you happen to notice which soldiers are training MACP on their own? I mean, sure, the 11Bs in the 82d probably have a vested interest, but how many times do the COSCOM folks pull out the mats and start sparring? How about the Sig Bde? Have you had a chance to speak to other division/post NCOICs to see if they're having success?

Unfortunately, like NDD, I'm no longer active, so getting to a Level I course isn't possible. If I could, it would be very interesting to see.

NousDefionsDoc · 11-26-2006, 08:00

Yurk, I'm back.

That's at least the second time that you've said something about not killing the enemy. Do you understand that you are proving my point here?

**Roguish Lawyer** · 11-26-2006, 08:14

NDD:

Which seven techniques from KOBK would you teach?

NousDefionsDoc · 11-26-2006, 08:32

Chin jab
EOH
Knee kick
Elbows
Strangles and chokes
Eye Gouge
Bronco stomp

**Roguish Lawyer** · 11-26-2006, 08:38

Thanks. I recently purchased the book and will focus on those techniques.

NousDefionsDoc · 11-26-2006, 08:39

And then how to use their equipment and weapons - barrel strikes, etc.

Then the defensive techniques - escapes, etc.

And then knife.

Even if they don't learn anything but the chin jab with groin strike and the bronco stomp they will be GTG. In combat, you aren't going to have to fight the same guy twice, so there's no danger of him "learning" your techniques.

And it doesn't take months or TDY.

NousDefionsDoc · 11-26-2006, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Thanks. I recently purchased the book and will focus on those techniques.

Hold on now. We are talking about combatives here, not self-defense. There are some other apsects that go along with this. One is GPP - PT. Once you develop a little bit of power with a chin jab - when you use it you are probably going to break his neck. And then you will be in jail. Bronco stomping somebody in the civilian world will undoubtely land you in the hoosegow.

H2H · 11-26-2006, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Thanks for the info. Do you happen to notice which soldiers are training MACP on their own? I mean, sure, the 11Bs in the 82d probably have a vested interest, but how many times do the COSCOM folks pull out the mats and start sparring? How about the Sig Bde? Have you had a chance to speak to other division/post NCOICs to see if they're having success?

Unfortunately, like NDD, I'm no longer active, so getting to a Level I course isn't possible. If I could, it would be very interesting to see.

Of course, most of the soldiers I run into training on their own are 11B's, 18X's, etc. I am always surprised at how many soldiers here on Bragg outside of the Combat Arms MOS's train. I know we are a bit of an anomaly here, because we have been so active with MACP, even writing in a section into the Division 350-1. As an example, it is public knowledge that 3 of 4 82nd BCT's are deplyed right now. Still, from 1 BCT and the "other units" here on Bragg, each month I fill every class to the maximum capacity of about 75 in Level I and 30 in Level II.

I know on many of the posts they do not have the COC support like we do, but it is growing. I know the program directors in Carson, Okinawa, Campbell, Richardson, etc. and they have great programs. Still, many units are not making the progress that we are. In fact, I will get guys from other posts that TDY to Bragg to take MACP courses from me because the Benning dates do not match up with their schedule.

Razor, active or not you are always welcome. Seriously, you ever have the time, just say the word. If you are out by Carson, I have a good friend that runs the program for the post and supports all the units in MACP there as well.

H2H · 11-26-2006, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Yurk, I'm back.

That's at least the second time that you've said something about not killing the enemy. Do you understand that you are proving my point here?

NDD,

It is not that I am trying to not kill the Haji, rather I am dealing with all of the "What if" situations. Killing the enemy is not always an option, and the better trained the soldiers are to deal with those situations, the better off they will be to stay alive.

I agree with where you are going much more than you may think. In all of my courses I actually "discuss" many of the other options for strikes, head stomps, etc. that are available outside of the MAC program.

incommin · 11-26-2006, 10:51

"but rather at those that once again insist on re-inventing a perfectly round wheel (I hear we've discovered that the .45 is the appropriate caliber for a service pistol - again). "

NDD, I liked that line!

My dad taught combativesin the AF........as a teenager he used to toss my butt around on the mat.......said he needed practice. I think he was teaching me..... and I learned combatives when I entered the Army............in 24 years of service, I never used it or talked to another soldier who used it...... so I ask the question....... how often do we now close with an enemy soldier and go at it hand to hand? How often do we fix bayonets?????? Who is pushing something new and how much is it needed?

Jim

NousDefionsDoc · 11-26-2006, 11:03

Quote:

Killing the enemy is not always an option, and the better trained the soldiers are to deal with those situations, the better off they will be to stay alive.

This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. If killing the enemy is not an option (with the obvious exception of prisoner snatches, etc.), then we aren't in combat. We must be in some kind of policing situation. Or a sporting event.

And in what scenario is killing the enemy not an option for us, but putting him in an armbar will keep us alive? If killing me is an option for him, killing him is the only option for me.

Again, I have no problem with this as a sport, but it ain't combatives. At least not by the definition I was taught.

And if you are forced to discuss other options outside of the MAC, then I don't think the program is new, innovative or the direction in which we need to be going. I think it is a sport.

Do you think Fairbairn had to "discuss" other options outside of his program?

**Pete** · 11-26-2006, 11:05

Reading through this reminds me of Mike E taking "PT" with Big Jake's SCUBA team in the mid 70s, my mind says 76ish.

Also the fun days of "Combat Football" better know as "getting even with your highers morning".

**Kyobanim** · 11-26-2006, 11:15

Just a reminder for the civilians reading this thread:

Some of the techniques discussed here, when used on another civilian, will most likely result in jail time. If you learn them, you had better also learn control, and the appropriate time to use them. I would also recommend a good lawyer be kept on retainer.

That is all.