LINE

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

A knife trumps a man's hands...a loaded weapon trumps a knife...

That all depends on who's first.

Going to the ground and choking someone out only works for "one at a time" opponents.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

That all depends on who's first.

Going to the ground and choking someone out only works for "one at a time" opponents.

Yes exactly - And, I suppose in a hand-to-hand confrontation - the matter of speed to your knife versus speed to your rifle/pistol matters as well...A knife can theoretically trump a loaded weapon - I'm thinking about the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the German soldier kills the GI with a knife when a weapon jams (or out of ammo can't quite remember) and other weapons are otherwise out of reach (one soldier stands petrified outside the door with his loaded weapon) - Although the actual scene was fiction veterans say this combat scenario was not necessarily uncommon as a potential reality in both urban and jungle warfare. It seems victory often depends on a Warrior's readiness and the dexterity of his hands to get to his knife or even better - his gun.

Lesson: A ready loaded weapon trumps an unready and/or unloaded weapon. In the rock/paper/scissors of close promity man-on-man combat the ready rock will always break the unready scissors.

Experts say that lethal hand-to-hand grappling skills, although very rarely if ever to be used, that the skills increase confidence in the individaul Warrior - He knows that if things ever went baseline primal - one man's body to another - that the Warrior could engage and prevail.

It's a fitness thing - both mental and physical. And, it's a contigency that provides a contribution toward peace of mind.

An analogy: 18Es having their PACE - primary, alternative, contigency, and emergency ways of making communications - defaults for possible failure scenarios. In the real world, you'll probably never need contigency or emergency. But, it's nice to know that it is there.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck



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[NousDefionsDoc]

Ok Chuck,
That post is full of "stuff" - comparing a movie to life, theory, seems, experts, probably...

Let's tone it down a bit neh?

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Ok Chuck,
That post is full of "stuff" - comparing a movie to life, theory, seems, experts, probably...

Let's tone it down a bit neh?

You're putting a knife to my analogies, huh?

Roger that.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

Yes exactly - And, I suppose in a hand-to-hand confrontation - the matter of speed to your knife versus speed to your rifle/pistol matters as well...A knife can theoretically trump a loaded weapon - I'm thinking about the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the German soldier kills the GI with a knife when a weapon jams (or out of ammo can't quite remember) and other weapons are otherwise out of reach (one soldier stands petrified outside the door with his loaded weapon) - Although the actual scene was fiction veterans say this combat scenario was not necessarily uncommon as a potential reality in both urban and jungle warfare. It seems victory often depends on a Warrior's readiness and the dexterity of his hands to get to his knife or even better - his gun.

Lesson: A ready loaded weapon trumps an unready and/or unloaded weapon. In the rock/paper/scissors of close promity man-on-man combat the ready rock will always break the unready scissors.

Experts say that lethal hand-to-hand grappling skills, although very rarely if ever to be used, that the skills increase confidence in the individaul Warrior - He knows that if things ever went baseline primal - one man's body to another - that the Warrior could engage and prevail.

It's a fitness thing - both mental and physical. And, it's a contigency that provides a contribution toward peace of mind.

An analogy: 18Es having their PACE - primary, alternative, contigency, and emergency ways of making communications - defaults for possible failure scenarios. In the real world, you'll probably never need contigency or emergency. But, it's nice to know that it is there.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck



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Chuck,

Just who are these "experts" you are quoting?

I've never actually seen or heard of any martial arts instructor, IPSC master, or any law enforcement officer going behind enemy lines and killing anyone with his bare hands, I do know Special Forces soldiers that have done so.

Let's keep the "hearsay" to zero. Unless you have walked the walk, keep the "talk" to a minimum. Remember where you are.... this is not military.com.

Team Sergeant

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Chuck,

Just who are these "experts" you are quoting?

I've never actually seen or heard of any martial arts instructor, IPSC master, or any law enforcement officer going behind enemy lines and killing anyone with his bare hands, I do know Special Forces soldiers that have done so.

Let's keep the "hearsay" to zero. Unless you have walked the walk, keep the "talk" to a minimum. Remember where you are.... this is not military.com.

Team Sergeant

Counsel taken...

I re-read my note and I'm not saying that anyone was behind enemy lines killing someone with their bare-hands.

The experts that I'm referring to are D-Day vets and I'm speaking about accounts of hand-to-hand involving knives, hands and guns - both loaded, within reach, out-of-reach, and otherwise inoperable.

My father's best friend is Roy Creek noted D-Day hero of the 507the PIR - He was spoken about in several of Stephen Ambrose's books - especially about the capture and securing of the bridge at Chef-du-Pont (Roy is quite famous in military circles - I wouldn't be surprised if most of you men over 40 haven't heard of him - perhaps, even know him). I made the trip to Normandy with my Dad, Roy and a group of men from the 507 - heros all. The Spielberg/Hanks movie was coming out about this same time... These men related a variety of stories about weapon-on-weapon hand-to-hand combat - knives, guns, and hand-to-hand wrestling - not unlike that depicted in the film - I refer to the film since it is a famous potrayal of a hand-to-hand situation involving knives and guns.

I did nothing for a week except sit around and listen to their first hand stories. I would hope these men qualifiy as experts...Needless to say, it may be I'm not qualified to say the things I did without more specific citations with whom I am referring to as experts. And, even then this may be the wrong time and place to speak about it - I'm still learning a little situational awareness here.

These men were the primary witnesses to whom I am referring.

Nevertheless, TS, I get your drift...

Thanks.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck


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[Go For Broke]

Originally Posted by Leozinho

I heard Donvito no longer has the contract to teach combatives at SWCS. Maybe someone will tell us what is being taught now.

WRT SWCS...no clue.

But when I signed in to the 1st Group back in '02, they were teaching combatives - specifically, the thought processes (to differentiate from style or school) of Kelly Worden (Renegade JKD) and Marcelus Alonso (Gracie family BJJ). Nowadays, they are using the thought processes of Chief D. / COL W. / and numerous other guys with martial (military) arts training. The other Groups use other ideas of combatives. It is all good...

I agree that the L.I.N.E.S. / Modern Army Combatives / or whatever "style" is taught, is good for the force. For those in the 1st Group, it has the added benefit, in that it helps to give credibility to us on JCETs with HN forces as I found out when discussing the merits of Pikita Tersia in the Philippines with a PHILMAR.

My only caution would be that we do not get too tied to a system / style that we forget we work in (a) different environment(s), e.g. going to the ground to apply a triangle lock / arm bar - works great in training, until your "partner" steps on your head multiple times or when whipping out your knife when a simple hammerlock would work.

Just my humble $0.02.

On a seperate note - Mr Harsey, how much input did you get from the 1st Group on the design of the Pacific? Looks like there were some Asiatic influenced features i.e., the the curve of the handle and the striations on the pommel.

V/R,

[H2H]

Originally Posted by Leozinho

I heard Donvito no longer has the contract to teach combatives at SWCS. Maybe someone will tell us what is being taught now.

It is my understanding that Ron and Mike have re-located to FL looking for an Air Force contract. There is a great article about Lines vs. Modern Army Combatives in last week AF Times.

SWCS recently had a great group of soldiers graduate from the Level III Modern Army Combatives Instructor Course. I was able to watch the progressing of many of the soldiers starting with the Level I course, then level II and then finally to the 4 week Level III course. As a whole, they were a very skilled group.

I would not want to make any assumptions, but the SF Community is giving a commitment to the MAC Program with training instructors, which could lead to MAC being taught in SWCS.

Maybe there are a few guys from the Level III course on here that could weigh-in with experiences from the course.

Jeff

[7624U]

Originally Posted by H2H

It is my understanding that Ron and Mike have re-located to FL looking for an Air Force contract. There is a great article about Lines vs. Modern Army Combatives in last week AF Times.

SWCS recently had a great group of soldiers graduate from the Level III Modern Army Combatives Instructor Course. I was able to watch the progressing of many of the soldiers starting with the Level I course, then level II and then finally to the 4 week Level III course. As a whole, they were a very skilled group.

I would not want to make any assumptions, but the SF Community is giving a commitment to the MAC Program with training instructors, which could lead to MAC being taught in SWCS.

Maybe there are a few guys from the Level III course on here that could weigh-in with experiences from the course.

Jeff

Phase II is going to be teaching Army Combatives now, this group of students in Phase II are the last to be instructed in LINES, Mike and his dad are moving down to Fort Walden Beach FL. They do have the contract with the Airforce now.

Source for this info is myself talking to Mike last month.

[ghille45]

the army is using the modern army combatives skillset that Matt larsen designed now.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by ghille45

the army is using the modern army combatives skillset that Matt larsen designed now.

Thanks, We'll let Matt know.

(IIRC He's a member of this board.)

TS

[Razor]

the army is using the modern army combatives skillset that Matt larsen designed now.

I think I heard that somewhere...

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...highlight=macp

[Defion69]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I watched Ron with C/3/7 and Training Group and his skills were sharp. He also seemed to be a pretty good teacher.

The one thing was that he ran training at full speed and there were a lot of fat lips, busted noses, and black eyes, as well as the usual muscle aches and pains, but the application was pretty impressive.

TR

I was in C 3/7 when Ron came down and gave us the courses....it was some good fun beating on each other! Good PT as well. Even with the phrase "the safety for this is...." there were still broken noses, ribs or other mashed parts.

Again, as any H2H system it will have it's critics but take the good from it and drive on...better than sitting on one's rear doing nothing.

In the end a true SF soldier does not accept just one method as the end all in anything he does. Whether it is shooting techniques, making commo or the myriad of skill sets required of a QP; we still look for ways to expand and improve. So you new guys learn all you can and find other stuff out there that some of us older guys haven't discovered yet and bring it to the table.

Take care,
JM

[ghille45]

Thanks, Matt's a great guy, and he's seen me get my tail kicked quite a few times. by the way, Team ROC is putting on a mma show on april 12th at the crown, if anybody is interested.