Precision Rifle Sling

[Tacticalinterve]

I guess we can agree to disagree on the design and materials used in my products but I will attempt to explain how come I do and use what I do.

I wish I had a chance to see this sling and fix problem. The materials and manufacture are exactly the same as what you saw with Rick. Exactly the same. I will break it down for you. The material used in the sling itself is far more expensive than the other prducts mentioned. Mine is many times stronger, more resistive to chemicals for cleaning and the weather . From my stand point I did not want it to be as stiff as the other product. My experience and others that use my product suggested the softer material worked better all around. The sling materials cost is over double what the cheaper companies use but worth it. Now lot to lot change in stiffness does exist because the coating they use to resist flame, can sometimes make it stiff and sometimes soft. The US manufacture says its changes nothing and can not be controlled. MY cuff is design to be worn on the arm for days on end and not cause circulation problems. It does what I designed it to and if made wider it would not work well with other equipment. The Hook and Loop on my product is also by a US Manufacture and has the distinction of being the best of this in sand and crappy environments. The metal in my sling is manufactured to my specs and so much stronger than anything any other manufacture uses there are no comparisons. I attempt to use the best parts I can. My experience suggests the abilities of my sling are far superior to any sling on the market. I hope these are the reasons the USMC has replaced the standard 1907 design with my Quick Cuff Model Two on all the USMC Sniper Rifles.

The swivels between the MOdel One and M24 are different. Originally I used Michaels Of Oregons Standrad swivels on the Model One because the Heavy Duty ones where not available when I came out with my slings. The M24 Model originally used the Heavy Duty Michaels Military swivels for a few years but Michaels sold to China and I quit using thier products, once manufactured in China. When that happened I found a US Manufacture of the standard swivels (Same as made them for Michaels) and switched to Talon Swivels for the M24 Model. The swivels not being sewn in was a direct request of US Military so they could run the slings on all systems, so instead of sewing shut the ends. I flarred, burned and sewed the ends to make them not come off unless you intended for them to. I ahve had zero failures of any swivel I used, with the xecption of a MIlitary version where the rifle was being carried with the swivel gate open. In that case the unsupport pin bent.

Your suggestions on stiffer sling and wider cuff have been tried and in the end most including myself prefer the way it is now, other wise I would make the changes. As to you being able to make it cheaper. This is something many think they can do on various products, but when you pay US Wages and Overhead it becomes harder than you think. Now if I went to China and used them for products and labor I could charge far less but then I would not sleep at night. Many cheaper manufactures use China so they can sell for less and make more. I wont. The price I charge is hardly making me rich and as Rick mentioned I sometimes work other places to make up the money needed to live.

As to the quality of the workmanship. It is made locally and by a man who makes many things for North Face and other high end Outdoor supply retailers. This is first complaint of his work in the year he has made them for me.In the end Brownells will send me this sling, so I will exam it and see what went wrong. I have never had my slings made by anything but what I consider the best. The cuff and sling are not made of the same materials.

Gene, you must have gotten one of my earlier and not made anymore shorter versions for the M4. Give me an email with address and I will send you the proper one.

Hope you have a safe and good life.

Mike Miller
Tactical Intervention

[The Reaper]

Mike:

Welcome aboard.

Now I have one of your slings, and I like it just fine, but Peregrino is an SF Weapons Sergeant with almost 30 years of service and is a competitive service rifle shooter. He is a decorated combat soldier, and I would give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his opinion. Maybe he just got a bad one. I am sure that he would be happy to send his back to you.

I realize that this is your baby, but a wise man listens closely and accepts constructive criticism when it is offered.

You are no doubt busy, but I hope you visit PS.com again and tell us what you find with the sling issue.

Take care.

TR

[Tacticalinterve]

TR, sorry my written skills suck. I did not mean to offend anyone. I do believe in my product. I am sorry he did not like it.

I was just attempting to explain the product and why it is the way it is. I try and listen to ideas for improvement and have made many changes over the years just because of feedback.

If he had contacted me I would have listened and done what ever it took to make him happy but I did not get that chance.

[The Reaper]

No worries.

Like I said, I like mine just fine, and I got it directly from you.

I have to tell you that I have never heard of the fire retardant chemicals causing variations in stiffness, but I guess that is possible, depending on the chemical used and the absorbsion.

I hope that he sends it back to you for your evaluation.

Best of luck.

TR

[Tacticalinterve]

TR, I just designed the thing and found the materials that worked best. I know some of the material I got was stiff as a board, while haveing same specs as all the others. Funny I dont use that stuff because I dont like a sling that stiff. I like the softer stuff so it does not rip my wriste area apart when shooting in field without a glove. I will now shut up on this unless someone has a question. Already ran mouth too much here.

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

I am curious as to what is going on here. SOTIC has been using that sling in field conditions for the past 4-5 years without failure to the sling. The slings are made with top notch nylon and stitching. The sling swivles are the one piece that jsut absolutely does not fail.

We have not ordered any slings for about a year, but I can not see that much of a drop in quality control over that time period. The slings we have are issued and reissued five times during a course. They are used throughout the course.

My only thought is that the owner, Mike M., has been doing contracts out of country and is sub contracting his slings.

Peregrino - stop by the office and look at ours and see if it is the same quality that you got. I am really curious as to the differences in the slings.

Rick
Is this what you guys are using now, or is it personal preference of the shooter? I never tried anything but the Leather sling on my 700
http://www.tacticalintervention.com/...smilitary.html

[longrange1947]

K - Yes that is the sling we use in the course.

We have the guys use the leather sling at first, as it is the "standard issue" sling. We then have them use the Tactical Sling as it is easier to get into and out of in a field situation. They use them on stalks and for unknown distance shooting and urban shoots. They can use them for inital ARM as long as they try the leather one. We will probably go completely Tactical sling in a bit as the leather ones are a pain to get and are getting too dam expensive for a throw away. We have had no problems with the Tactical Slings at all.

[Peregrino]

PS.com - meet Tactical Intervention. TI/Mike - meet PS.com. As you’ve probably figured out, TI is the inventor/owner of Tactical Intervention and the Quick Cuff Sling. When we finished the original burst of activity on this thread, I asked for input from anybody having experience with the TI slings to add to the discussion. I got a couple of PMs from trusted agents, all of whom expressed surprise at my comments and satisfaction with their own experiences (years of use in several cases). Mike, I’m guessing it took a while before “the (un)usual suspects” directed your attention to the board/thread. Thanks for bringing our discussion in here where everybody could share (and I can make one reply vs. two). You saved me cutting and pasting our PMs.

FWIW – I’ve had a couple of lessons (that I should have paid more attention to in the first place) reinforced.
No. 1 – Do your homework. I did an impulse buy based on something TR showed me several years ago that I remembered “imperfectly”. I should have checked the manufacturer’s website before ordering. I doubt I would have ordered the Model One had I known about the M24 version. I understand tiering your product but don’t think the professionals most likely to use/appreciate your slings would care if you dropped (what I consider to be) the bottom of the line. I know you said Brownells asked you to continue it, they are a savvy merchandiser, but I’m confused.
No. 2 – When purchasing a low-volume specialty product, deal with the manufacturer directly. (NOT to disparage Brownells; they’re a great company to work with and whenever I need widgets, they’re the first place I check.) The manufacturer has a personal interest in the product and can explain nuances of material selection, product use, and is concerned about customer perceptions. Had I purchased directly from TI, a phone call could have cleared up a lot. Unfortunately, vendors, even good ones, do not inspire a direct dialog.
No 3 – Don’t hit SEND when annoyed. TR keeps pointing that out but occasionally I still do it. One thing caught my attention, did not meet my expectations, led to a (very) critical examination of the product, and I got annoyed. I probably should have quit after I sent it back to the distributor. Fortunately we’ve had an enlightening discussion and now Mike’s been able to step up to the plate with his side. ‘Nuff said.

Mike – I agree; there are a few points where we will have to “agree to disagree”. I’ve read your discussion points and went back to the TI website for additional information. I’m satisfied you’ve selected quality components but feel that the materials issues (after meeting a median standard) are mostly a matter of personal preference. Almost any webbing is far stronger than required to carry the rifle and provide shooting support. Most “grunts” have improvised slings using everything from parachute cord to sling-ropes and cravats and been generally successful. In fact I still have several tactical slings made out of 1” tubular nylon that we put together back in the 80’s with the help of our riggers. Good slings often get used for a lot more than just carrying the rifle.
You make a good argument for your webbing choice but it felt “soft” to me – something I’ve come to associate with a looser, less durable weave. I’m looking for a particular “hand”, durability, and how well it works with the various fasteners - i.e. does it hold yet can it still be adjusted. I am impressed with the fire-resistant claims; how is it for melting? (I have done that – back before the Army saw fit to monitor barrel life.)
The metal ladders are impressive (I think I alluded to that in my first post) but the hunting quality sling swivels did not meet my expectations – in fact they were an instant turn-off. Not an issue with the M24 version; wish I had known that up front.
The plastic buckles and Velcro need only be the genuine article; knockoffs are a false economy.

Now that I’m more educated on TI’s product/philosophy – and I know who to see about problems – I would like to try this again with the right product this time. You’ve made your argument and friends have weighed in on your behalf. I’m willing to set aside my initial experience as an aberration and re-look the issue. If you’re willing, I’ll send you my CC info Monday (after I figure out what’s left when I give my gunsmith another installment Saturday) and we can start fresh.

Peregrino

P.S. - Does anybody know where I can find a USMC pattern cloth shooting jacket in khaki? (Yes - I do know what I'm doing. ) If I'm going to try this again, I need to give it a fair shot and the jacket will help a lot (homey quit wearing gillie suits a long time ago). Thanks.

[Tacticalinterve]

Wow after a couple of emails with Peregrino, I am sure of a few things. He is absolutely telling the truth and the sling he had purchased as one of mine was not one of my slings. A couple of weeks after he returned this to Brownells, in Feb, I got a sling returned to me from them. When I opend the package the sling inside was not made by my company. The isntruction sheet was a copy of one I used about four years ago and the sling was similar in design but materials where crap. I contacted Brownells and told them this but replaced it anyway. Brownells and I have no idea how a non TIS Sling was shipped as a TIS Sling. This is the first and last time this has happened.

This is the only sling I have had returned to me from Brownells in many years so I believe this is the one Peregrino had. No slings have been returned to me since.

Brownells has been a great retailer of my products for many years. This I believe is an isolated incident and have no worries it wont happen again.

[The Reaper]

Mike:

Chinese knock-offs of American products are all over the place out there.

As you know, they have teams cruising the SHOT Show every year looking for items to knock off. I have heard some nylon companies say that before they can get home from the Show, copies are already en route to the US. I wish they had more integrity and we had more intestinal fortitude.

I suppose that if someone unscrupulous were to buy one of your slings from a mail order company like Brownell's, they could keep it and return a fake in the original packaging. I do not think that Brownell's would deliberately buy Chinese copies and engage in deceptive marketing.

Anyway, glad to see that you have made commo and resolved the problem.

Best of luck.

TR

[Tacticalinterve]

Agreed, no way Brownells would do this willingly. The only scenario I could see is someone buys a real one, takes real one out, replaces with fake and then returns it for what ever reason. Brownells then returns what they think is real one to stock and sells to next guy. If someone returned what looked like a new one it would probaly get restocked if no complaints on product quality where made. Not saying this is what happened. I just know someone once sent Brownells a sling they thought was mine when it was a knock off.

Brownells is as good a company as I have ever dealt with. Honest folsk from ground up.

[Peregrino]

I love emails and date stamps. Impartial evidence trails and timelines do wonders for tracking events/actions. TI - I was wondering if you were aware this all happened in February. From the tone of our initial exchanges, it didn’t sound like it. By the time I had lunch with LR1947 (2nd week of February) the item in question was back at Brownells and the CC refund was already credited (and spent on something else). Your latest comments go a long way towards explaining the discrepancies between my observations and your product info/reputation in the community. (I had dismissed the poor quality of the instruction sheet and the cheap ziplock bag everything was packaged in as being on par with the rest of the product – I didn’t even mention it with my other “observations.”) Did Brownells include a copy of the return slip I sent them? It would be pretty distinctive - I was somewhat "curt" with my reason for the return. I sincerely hope you can ID the source of this problem. I'm looking forward to seeing "the real deal" and I wish you luck figuring out what happened. Peregrino

[Tacticalinterve]

I dont rememer exactly what came back with the sling, but recall a hand written note saying it was of poor quality and returned for that. Was so steamed I threaw the whole thing in trash. It was in square zip lock bag when got to me with Instruction sheets from many years ago. Just tell me when you get current one if anything looks the same.

No I did not realize at first this was from Feb. I did not read that just saw where you where not happy.

[Peregrino]

OK Guys – Time to satisfy a “Debt of Honor”. Months ago I purchased a Tactical Interventions sling, wasn’t happy with it, returned it to the vendor, and raised a stink in here. Figured that was the end of the affair (based on my first experience) because I sure as hell wasn’t going to waste money on another one. Surprise, surprise; several months after I’d moved on to other issues, the owner of TI finds my complaint, takes issue with my findings, and defends his product. It took a series of emails, but we resolved to set aside our initial impressions of each other and start fresh. He sent me another sling (specifically the military model) and I promised to give it an impartial evaluation. That was the end of June. I’ve now had it for four and a half months, used it in a broad range of conditions (in fact I just got back from the range), and feel ready to “pass judgment”.

When the sling arrived, I inspected it with a critical eye. There were no apparent defects. In fact I had to go back to my original post here to make sure I remembered the points that had so annoyed me. It’s a good thing I did. I was able to go down the list, one issue at a time, and dismiss them. Where I had questions, I went back to the PMs and relooked it from TI’s perspective. It wasn’t a “love fest” (I still think the webbing is soft and slippery – but it does the job and I acknowledge TI’s rationale); however, I’m happy with what I found. The most important issue was quality control. The two slings don’t appear to have originated from the same manufacturer. The sling I’ve got now is well constructed, with obvious attention to detail in the manufacture. I’ve used it for four months with no appreciable wear. LR1947 (sidebar we had when this first came up) reports “years” of student abuse at SOTIC (or whatever they call it this week) without failure and I can see why. The first thing to catch my eye was the sling swivels (just like the first time). I don’t know where TI got these but I want more. These things are bombproof. The studs will rip out of the stock before the swivels deform. Not hyperbole! The rest of the hardware is similar/identical to the first sling and not worth additional comment.

I put it on a (relatively) stock Win 70 in .308 that I’ve found to be fairly accurate and “used” it (no scientific testing here) extensively at ranges from 100 – 600 yards. When I first mounted it, I followed the directions off the website. That placed the fastex buckle for the cuff on the outside, away from the rifle. When I clipped in, it put a twist in the sling across the back of my hand/wrist. That lasted about five seconds (high pain tolerance) before I reversed the sling to put the buckle on the inside and rethreaded the top keeper to put it back on the outside (away from my wrist/forearm). With the fastex on the inside, a simple half-twist to the left to connect the cuff and it lays smooth across my support hand. (If you’re concerned about the fastex buckle banging against the stock, cover it with an elastic loop like the ones already on the sling. It doesn’t bother me when I’m in position and when the rifle is slung, my body is between the two – again not a problem.) I found that the sling/sling swivels put a fair amount of torsion on the sling studs and tended to cause them to loosen/unscrew. I put up with it for a couple range trips, then I put some locktite (actually stud locker) on them and they haven’t moved since.

The first set of pictures I took show me using a USMC pattern shooting jacket. I need some padding to prevent bruising and it’s about the right weight to simulate one of the tactical/prone jackets or a ghillie suit. TI mentions sewing the cuff in place on your shooting apparel (field gear) and leaving it there. Based on my experimentation, I concur. Have a buddy mark the proper location while you’re in position and tack it down. A couple of quick stitches will fix it in place and you’ll never have to worry about it again. It’s designed/constructed with enough flexibility to accommodate minor position variances. If you have more than one set of field gear get another (several) cuffs. It’s worth it to have everything set up and not need to screw with it whenever you change gear. Adjust the sling length for the correct tension. It cannot be adjusted in position so experiment to ensure it’s right. Use a (shooting) glove or improvise padding for the support hand, otherwise, the sling swivels I’ve been raving about will eat your hand up.

Bottom line at the bottom (knew I could make you read all this) I can safely say that it passes the “better mousetrap” test. Most accessories are just that – accessories – with little of value to differentiate one from the other. The (military version) TI sling is the exception that rewards our perpetual hunt for better gear. I've shown it to friends who are experienced long range shooters and all of them have been impressed with the concept/execution. Needless to say, I’m glad TI and I made the effort to figure out what went wrong the first time. I can definitely say it’s been worthwhile. The next time I need a field/tactical sling for a precision rifle, I’ll be looking at buying another TI MILSPEC sling. LR1947 – thanks for keeping the pot stirred!

Peregrino

[Peregrino]

More pictures.