2018 SOTU

[Basenshukai]

Originally Posted by cat in the hat

Yes he is a salesman and can convince people who are predisposed to agreeing with him.

I have always maintained that Bill Clinton and Barack Obama where two of the most intelligent men to gain access to the Oval Office in recent years. By that I mean, their academic achievements and their resulting ability to communicate to eloquently has always been impressive to me. But, I do not think they were good presidents. They were good salesmen who could consistently "convince people who are predisposed to agreeing with" them as well as those who are easily impressed by an academic resume, or by oratory skill enough to forgo considering the damage they cause to the country via their liberal policies. I'm not so easily impressed.

When I voted for Trump, I was not in the market for a scholar. I wanted someone to truly shake the foundations of the political system and I wanted someone who will re-balance the Supreme Court, or at least tilt it slightly right for a long while. I think I've gotten what my vote purchased. Trump will never be the masterful political animal we are used to seeing in that office. But, that's why I voted for him.

[JimP]

Disagree, Obama was an idiot. he walked his color into Harvard and onto the Harvard Law Review. He's one of the few that never had to write a law review article as a member of the Law review. The guy really isn't that bright. There's a reason they sealed all his grades and transcripts.

A couple of his tests leaked out in the early years when he was an adjunct at Occidental (?), full of grammar mistakes, ebonics, etc.

Dude could read one hell of a speech though, I'll give him that.

[WarriorDiplomat]

Originally Posted by cat in the hat

I have never said mcain was a good senator or that his final votes were a good thing. I pointed out that trump did not have to attack him on a personal level (eg, i like people who weren't shot down) some people are capable of having civilized disagreements without resorting to mud slinging or ad hominem attacks.

You are taking the comment out of the context of why it was said....McCain was a RINO and it was a response to McCains appointment as a War Hero by lefties and other RINO's which he absolutely was not he was shot down and was captured and was a POW for 5 yrs....in what in that event makes him a hero? he was correcting the narrative that was created.....you really should study McCain before he is placed into the status of untouchable.....none of the real heros of Vietnam ever achieved the cult status of such a narcissistic asshole as he was...when I was a SERE instructor and went to multiple JPRA schools I learned to dislike him more.

I am not missing the intelligence you speak of, I am saying I do not think he highly intelligent. Yes he is a salesman and can convince people who are predisposed to agreeing with him.

You apparently do miss the high people IQ that he has that simply cannot be taught in a speech, debate and or body language reading course and training....I have gone to several courses and even bought the book the game....you cannot train yourself to match someone's natural instincts...just like scientific or Mathematical or Philosophical it is a recognized genius....proven by how many smart people not put off by the surface drive by impression but an understanding of how he masters social interactions as needed...more importantly than all of it...results and effort.

His learned and studied speech patterns are designed to gain trust among his target audience. If he were targeting intellectuals he would use a larger vocabulary and present arguments differently or at least more coherently. Employing a salesman trick is not a sign of intelligence. Sometimes it helps to read transcripts of speaches.

Again you are missing it apparently out of contempt...I had contempt for Obama no doubt because he was a manipulator with a great presence, vocabulary etc...but he said very little but it sounded so eloquently...ironically enough in SF we have the same gullibility where the presence and articulation impresses everyone more than the actual content....

Not sure how or why obama enters into this discussion. I have never and will never defend him.

No one said you mentioned him however he is a prime example of a preconceived Presidential type...articulate and good presence....everything people expect from Presidential behavior....but then look at what he actually did, listen to what he actually said.....he was destroying this country catering to the 1-5% in the name of social justice....he used divisive language and policies but damn he sounded so Presidential.

Yes I think that it is possible that trumps personal attack against mcain may have played a part in mcains decision to scew us all in the obama care repeal vote. Not sure why you choose to infer that i say it was a good thing or that mcain was justified. I did say on another thread that his political career does not justify disparaging his military career.

This absolutely blows my mind that McCain cannot be held accountable for his own bad decisions....cause and effect should not apply here....but this is exactly the same mindset that is wrecking Special Forces today...lack of personal accountability...hmmmm

I will say it is simple to separate trumps military service from everything else because his bone spurs would not really get in the way of real estate deals or reality TV shows. Especially if you are "like, really smart"

???? Again I suggest you really do some study on McCain before you put him on that pedestal....he served out of tradition but not with distinction except for being the spoiled arrogant self serving son of a top Admiral...what has he done for this nation as a man with the power to stand for the higher principles of this country and the people that elected him??? Trump is actually trying to save this nation from the tyranny that was dragging us into socialism at combat speed.

I don't believe that politicians care for anyone or anything more than they do about getting re elected and staying in power.

I agree politicians seem to be I the business of government and not in the spirit of service.....thank God Trump wasn't a politician and it shows he is shaking up the corruption while the entire USG machine has targeted and tried to wreck the man from everything from the false collusion to jaywalking and he stands like an oak

Yes he is the president, the same as obama was and bush and clinton. I refuse buy into a cult of personality.

You can see it anyway you want I would say Obama was the cult of personality that should have sent shivers down your spine....it isn't about his personality it is about his actions.....most of us don't buy a pretty car without looking at how it runs

Since I seem to have stirred up the hornets nest why not go for the whole thing.
When is Mexico going to pay for the reinforced concrete wall he promised? Sooner or Later Mexico will pay for it whether it be through economic hardship or some other means they will pay for it and in fact their is a proposal from senators to seize Chapo Guzmans accumulated drug money and pay for the wall....
[/COLOR]I'm working off of my phone so hard to look up exactly how many close advisors have plead guilty? Or been indicted? Plead guilty for what? as I read and understand it Mueller (an agent of the deep state) has bankrupted, squeezed and intimidated everyone in Trumps circle and they are cutting deals to avoid jail time and some insiders are saying the deals are capitulations and unsubstantiated hyperbole to say anything they want to hear about Trump to avoid losing everything post sentence.
How much is he worth? Where are his tax returns? 3-4 Billion and what business it of ours hw he pays taxes or what his worth is? which is exactly what we needed a POTUS who did not need special interest money to get elected....they could not buy the POTUS like they do with every other one.
What is the name of the only bank that will still do business with him? ?? Would your bank be reluctant if you were the target of the might of the Obama DOJ and Democrat Congressmen who are fairly transparent in their desire to oust Trump....apparently Trump is not as corruptible in their schemes as others and is really hurting the swmps profit margins.
How many bankruptcies has he filed? How many people/contactors has he refused to pay for services rendered? His business dealings pre public servant are none of our business...I never heard of a business that did not have contract issues and issues with the work vs agreement.
How many illegals does he still employ at his resorts? I doubt Trump had visibility of every employee given the sheer amount of management between himself and the ground
What is the definition of executive time? How many rounds of golf has he played since his inauguration? Trump is considered to be a working machine unlike many previous Presidents and when he is working is said to sleep about 4 hrs a night....if he is playing some Golf that's fine with me at least he isn't wrecking the nation with SJW policies.

Feel free to answer any of those or simply ask yourself why is it so important that I (or anyone else) agree with you?

I really don't care if you agree with me at all....what is concerning is how subjective your rationale is...objectivity is the only way to fairly and honestly assess public servants.......you seem to have some personal issues with Trump OK fine.....or me

[Basenshukai]

Originally Posted by JimP

Disagree, Obama was an idiot. he walked his color into Harvard and onto the Harvard Law Review. He's one of the few that never had to write a law review article as a member of the Law review. The guy really isn't that bright. There's a reason they sealed all his grades and transcripts.

A couple of his tests leaked out in the early years when he was an adjunct at Occidental (?), full of grammar mistakes, ebonics, etc.

Dude could read one hell of a speech though, I'll give him that.

I'd love to see those tests. Link?

[PSM]

Originally Posted by cat in the hat

I have never said mcain was a good senator or that his final votes were a good thing. I pointed out that trump did not have to attack him on a personal level (eg, i like people who weren't shot down) some people are capable of having civilized disagreements without resorting to mud slinging or ad hominem attacks.

I don't think that Trump was exactly wrong in his statement, but I don't think that he had the facts in mind when he said it. McCain essentially got himself shot down that day. Not only had he been hurriedly transferred to the USS Oriskany, he had not been fully integrated into the squadron but bullied his way onto the mission anyway. (Remember, his dad had just become CINCPAC.) The AO and missions were different than he had flown from the Forrestal and they had TTPs for handling the A/A fire that brought him down. He did not follow procedures regarding the A/A or the proper procedure for ejecting . . . he caused his own injuries. Had he not been shot down and captured I doubt that we would have ever heard of him. He was one disaster after another.

[cat in the hat]

Originally Posted by WarriorDiplomat

I really don't care if you agree with me at all....what is concerning is how subjective your rationale is...objectivity is the only way to fairly and honestly assess public servants.......you seem to have some personal issues with Trump OK fine.....or me

I do not have personal issues with trump.
We just disagree about his intelligence and a spirited debate is always enjoyable.

I emphatically do NOT have personal issues with you and will not insult you by thinking I need to offer an apology because am equally emphatically sure you are NOT a snowflake who's feelings have been hurt.

We have spilled some of the same blood in some of the same mud brother. Our differences make us stronger. Maybe one day we can argue over a beer or some good bourbon.

[cat in the hat]

Originally Posted by PSM

I don't think that Trump was exactly wrong in his statement, but I don't think that he had the facts in mind when he said it. McCain essentially got himself shot down that day. Not only had he been hurriedly transferred to the USS Oriskany, he had not been fully integrated into the squadron but bullied his way onto the mission anyway. (Remember, his dad had just become CINCPAC.) The AO and missions were different than he had flown from the Forrestal and they had TTPs for handling the A/A fire that brought him down. He did not follow procedures regarding the A/A or the proper procedure for ejecting . . . he caused his own injuries. Had he not been shot down and captured I doubt that we would have ever heard of him. He was one disaster after another.

I have heard that I formation and some other less flattering stories about mcain.
I do not beleive he was an ideal officer OR senator. I also don't think that one necessarily makes you better at the other.
I do reserve a level of respect for anyone who serves and recieved and honorable discharge.
When they pass, I prefer to respect their service and move on
I also do not care for politicians who base their campaign on being a veteran. Being a veteran does not give anyone all the answers and solutions to every issue

Where I think trump made a mistake was he could have made the same point by saying being a veteran (specifically not using the term hero) does not make him right about the issues at hand.

I remember that interview and when initially said "he lost, i don't like losers" I laughed out loud and thought he was headed in the right direction. Had trump made the choice to serve he might have a leg to stand on with the comment about liking people who did not get shot down. I personally don't think getting shot down (essentially a mistake) is worth celebrating either. Arguably he did perform heroically while a POW, especially by refusing parole. I know it is a double standard, like a black man using the N word, but a non veteran should be careful when disparaging combat service.

[PSM]

Originally Posted by cat in the hat

Arguably he did perform heroically while a POW, especially by refusing parole.

His father was CINCPAC. What else could he do?

[WarriorDiplomat]

Originally Posted by cat in the hat

I do not have personal issues with trump.
We just disagree about his intelligence and a spirited debate is always enjoyable.

I emphatically do NOT have personal issues with you and will not insult you by thinking I need to offer an apology because am equally emphatically sure you are NOT a snowflake who's feelings have been hurt.

We have spilled some of the same blood in some of the same mud brother. Our differences make us stronger. Maybe one day we can argue over a beer or some good bourbon.

Its all good brother