Revolution in the United States

[Roguish Lawyer]

Under what circumstances, if any, would it be appropriate for American citizens to overthrow the United States government by force?

This is a theoretical discussion only.

[SouthernDZ]

In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women.

[Team Sergeant]

Probably the quickest way would be to give an illegal order to the US military, or, by declaring martial law when it's not required or for purely political purposes.

Any deliberate attempt to disarm American citizens by the government etc.

Or by placing a known socialist in the White House as "president"........

Why do you ask?

[MR2]

or criticizing TS's cooking...

[atticus finch]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Under what circumstances, if any, would it be appropriate for American citizens to overthrow the United States government by force?

This is a theoretical discussion only.

First off, "overthrow" Under what circumstances are we talking about?
A government which no longer functions according to it's bonafide charter or basis of legitimate authority? Ie: has become tyrannical or otherwise destructive to the public?
How has it become so? Infiltration and/or subversion from within via the people ostensibly running it who have a subversive or otherwise destructive agenda?
Removing those people via use of force at the hands of the public, if needed, I don't think fits the criteria for calling it an 'overthrow' of a given government. More so calling it a restoration of legitimate government away from the subversive or destructive agenda that was implemented.
Overthrow of a government I'd associate with a government which is functioning properly within it's charter or it's bonafide basis of legitimate authority or at the very least is more than reasonably close to what it's supposed to be. The closest of that I can think of is the French Revolution, didn't turn out too well, ditto for the russion revolution.
Restoration of proper government, albeit via two different paths, the american revolution as well as the southern war for independence. They did not seek to destroy what they were separating from, only to go thier own path.
In the case of our current government, restoration of it's bonafide authority might be a better way to look at it?

[sinjefe]

The conditions for revolution, insurgency, etc. don't yet exist here in the US. As long as the sheeple can go to the movie theater, buy booze and a whopper when they want, we won't have one.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Why do you ask?

Because it is an interesting and timely topic.

Fodder:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[tonyz]

Here's just a little guidance...these words never grow old and tired...

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world...

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by sinjefe

The conditions for revolution, insurgency, etch. don't yet exist here in the US. As long as the sheeple can go to the movie theater, buy booze and a whopper when they want, we won't have one.

In other words long as they can maintain the illusion that everything is okay. Reminds me of youth sports, everybody is happy as long they see wins. The team or player can suck to high heaven, but as long as they are winning the parents are all smiles....take the wins away and things get heated.

[Flagg]

I'm just up visiting.

I've run into a couple of current and prior service SF and Rangers enjoying a few GORUCK events with a bunch of Americans while here.

All I know is that as long as there's enough Americans like them(and a crazy diverse bunch they were), the US is going to be fine no matter what happens down the track.

Talk about motivated Americans!

What does that have to do with the thread topic?

Nothing and everything I reckon!

[Tree Potato]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Probably the quickest way would be to give an illegal order to the US military, or, by declaring martial law when it's not required or for purely political purposes.

Any deliberate attempt to disarm American citizens by the government etc.

Or by placing a known socialist in the White House as "president"........

These have happened, and yet the sheep keep watching garbage TV being fed propoganda and playing on their free phones. The vast majority have surrendered liberty for comfort. As long as "progressives" keep the pace of change slow enough for people to adapt, the boiling frog will simply enjoy the hot tub.

It will take something more dramatic imposed across the nation in order to incite large scale armed rebellion. This seems a very long way off.

[Team Sergeant]

The Bundy Ranch event was a good example of how far the "government" can push the people without being pushed back. Had they not left there would have been dead federal agents all over the place.

The liberal/progressive/socialists work just like the communists. The Russians fly almost into our airspace before turning back and do it just to elicit a response. The EPA raid in Alaska, the IRS & BLM criminal activities, Hitlery and her server, Benghazi and the list goes on. They push just far enough until they feel resistance and then and only then do they back down. Many in the "federal" agencies are too stupid to realize when they are being used as political pawns, others are witting players until they are caught, like lois learner.

Trust me there will come a day when they step on it and do something really stupid. Bundy Ranch let them know how far they can go.

Some will see it coming, some know what to look for and possess the training to either stop it or back it.

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

The Bundy Ranch event was a good example of how far the "government" can push the people without being pushed back. Had they not left there would have been dead federal agents all over the place..........

Trust me there will come a day when they step on it and do something really stupid. Bundy Ranch let them know how far they can go.

Some will see it coming, some know what to look for and possess the training to either stop it or back it.

Absolutely correct in that TS!

The ground work has already being laid re: recent SCOTUS rulings supporting Executive Branch's extra-Congressional accretion of authority.

Too many opportunities for a misjudgement on the Fed's part. It would appear inevitable given the current trajectory. Just don't know where and when.

RL: That's a pretty good check list and applicable to today. Seems I have seen that list of complaints somewhere...

[Streck-Fu]

Bundy Ranch let them know how far they can go.

Hopefully, they learned that many Americans are not interested in seeing another Ruby Ridge or Waco....

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Under what circumstances, if any, would it be appropriate for American citizens to overthrow the United States government by force?

This is a theoretical discussion only.

An interesting topic. When Hitler came to power, Germany was the most highly educated nation on the Earth. It also had a rather large percentage of Christians and Jews (people who would ostensibly be rather reluctant to participate in Hitler's later activities). Besides a few small coup attempts, the German people never attempted a "revolution".

The Declaration of Independence you reference was a good example of an "appropriate" reason for revolution, although today's average US citizen is much too passive for this to be a realistic spark to revolution. Presently, I think it would take an occurrence such as the Armenian Genocide, mass starvation, or a complete Constitutional breakdown, for normal taxpaying US citizens to take a stand.

Appropriate vs. Realistic is an important distinction.