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Old 07-31-2008, 09:20   #16
Guy
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In "one" word...

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Originally Posted by Geenie View Post
So what can be done? It's easy to say "do nothing and let the situation resolve itself" -- I'm sure many of the people on this board are aware of the kind of consequences that can arise when you leave a country unchecked.

EDIT: logic.
Sterilization

Stay safe.
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:32   #17
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If you (and your neighbors) breed like lemmings, you should expect the same sort of periodic population correction, and there is nothing we can, or necessarily should do about it. The population will continue to increase until we can no longer feed them all, at which point our nation could collapse as well.


Hear! Hear!

Spitting out large numbers of children without the ability to personally feed, care for, and mentor is very similar to buying things you can't afford!

Steve Martin was involved in a similar situation.
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/05/05lbuy.phtml

Soylent Green could be a possible option for those that are not responsible breeders.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:15   #18
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I was not going to voice this opinion, but since Guy went there... IMO any food aid that we provide to anyone, anywhere, should be chemically treated to make the consumer sterile as long as they continue to consume it. If you can not feed yourself than you should not reproduce.

x/S
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Old 07-31-2008, 20:28   #19
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Originally Posted by exsquid View Post
I was not going to voice this opinion, but since Guy went there... IMO any food aid that we provide to anyone, anywhere, should be chemically treated to make the consumer sterile as long as they continue to consume it. If you can not feed yourself than you should not reproduce.

x/S
Thanks exsquid and Guy. Now I don't feel like a b*stard anymore for contemplating putting something (depo provera) in the drinking water (or any general public consumption) that would sterilize people in a certain 3rd world country when I was 15
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:18   #20
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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Embrace Africa as the "Mother" land!

I'll stick with the USofA as my "mother" land! "Mom has been pretty good to me!"

Stay safe.

Guy,

Allow me to explain. Black Americans/African Americans (or whatever the category is now a days) view Africa as the "Motherland" for historic and symbolic reasons. I was born in the great State of New York and I feel fortunate that I was born in America. I have never visited Africa but I am interested in doing so. You see... my history is not as clear as yours may be. It might not be "easy" for you to track your ancestry but it was very difficult for me to track mine. You were probably fortunate enough to have a last name that could be traced back as far as you are willing to work in order to do so; I had no such option. I had to patch much of my ancestry together over a number of years and with a lot of face to face research in unfamiliar places with uncooperative people at times.
What has happened to Africa is very unfortunate. Colonialism and Africans OWN mistakes have nearly destroyed what once was obviously a great continent. Persons of African descent have made many significant contributions to the world and particularly the United States. I feel bad that Africans cant seem to get themselves together and I have love in my heart for them all. I am an American first and foremost and have served MY country since 1995 (when I was 21) and I am proud of that fact. No matter what negative things have happened to Black Americans since we were first brought to this country... it is still MY country and I work to make it better instead of complaining about things. My first cousin (the closest thing I have to a brother) is currently a Marine E-5 and BOTH of my grandfathers served in WWII in segregated units and depsite all of the hardships that I am sure they were exposed to... I never heard either of them complain. I have heard that my grandfathers were not the only men in my family tree to have served OUR country either.
When I see men like Mugabe taking advantage of his situation it sickens me. He kicks the British out of the country to accomplish what? To take advantage of his own people and enrich himself. The man should be removed from power immediately and by force if necessary. In my opinion it s a shame that the other African Nations do not care enough to go in there and get his corrupt ass out of power. Most African Nationals are not "crazy" about Black Americans and the relationship between the two of us in this country is not good. I know that the majority of African Nationals could care less about Black America and many have a genuine hatred for us... nonetheless the problems that Africa endures is still something that will always be in the minds of many of us here in America.
As far as the sterilization comments, I dont believe that members of ANY race should be bringing children into this world if they cannot take care of them properly. While it doesn't "sound good" to hear that said, it is not a bad idea in light of the circumstances. That article is blunt but frank talk doesn't kill me, I'm a blunt person myself. Many African countries have longstanding problems that need to be addressed. It is a sad fact that with all the resources the Continent has things are not better there. Black Americans cant help but be bothered by the problems in "the Motherland"... even those of us who serve in the Armed Forces.

Respectfully
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Old 08-01-2008, 13:32   #21
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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
At least not in my life time.

You can read and study about Africa until you're BLUE in the face; 10 years from now, they'll be worst off unless...

Some "modern-age" country installs a dictator that's NOT corrupt.

Haiti is still a shit-hole and we put that bastard Aristide back in there; look where he's at now.

Oh well...stay safe.
I agree with Guy totally....
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Old 08-02-2008, 01:11   #22
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Originally Posted by Broadsword2004 View Post
All this just makes me realize how blessed a person is to be born into America. It's like winning the lottery of the human race. Every American is like a lottery winner in a sense.
I FEEL YOU!

Bigblue:
Quote:
Allow me to explain. Black Americans/African Americans (or whatever the category is now a days) view Africa as the "Motherland" for historic and symbolic reasons.
I've had the above "classification" bestowed upon me for 44+ years. Every time I've been to the "Motherland" Africa. Numerous things would occur which I didn't care for:

I got sick
Someone wanted me dead
Some thing wanted to eat me
It sucked
Tried to rip me off
Tried to help; SOBs were corrupt
Harrassed and called all sorts of names
Dysentery
Severe diarhhea
Hungry as hell
Humped a ruck until I almost passed out
Dehydration
Non-potable water
Bit by I don't know what type of insects
Etc., etc, etc....

More power too ya'll and Africa; have at it! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!

Stay safe.
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:57   #23
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I have to make a comment here, as I fear the gist is sliding precariously and I don't want to be the instigator of something that gets nasty..

I posted this article as a brain stimulator,, Not as an invitation to racial bias..

A person who is bold enough to write an article about Africa, could have just easily picked Mexico, India, China, or any of the dozens of smaller countries experiencing like conditions.

The World has a problem, we are creating more people than this Earth can sustain.

Africa is the visible tip of the spear. It is in the middle of a pervasive and progressive pandemic that can only get worse.

The UN, EU, and rest of the World are trying to treat the symptoms, while completely ignoring the basic cause.

If I am wrong about the follow-up posts, please forgive my anxiety..

This topic is not something I write about lightly..

Thanks
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:52   #24
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Originally Posted by JJ_BPK View Post
The World has a problem, we are creating more people than this Earth can sustain.
Sir, I'm glad that you have started the conversation. In addition, your concerns are both wise and well-founded.

I am a rather strong proponent of peak oil theory. Our modern agricultural system is both global and mechanized, with strong dependency on cheap and abundant liquid fuels. The Catton text I referred to earlier suggests that we are, in essence, transforming fossil fuels (crude oil and natural gas) into calories we can consume as food through the agricultural system. There are some indications that we may consume as many as 10 calories of oil for every one calorie of food we eat. The implication is that if the availability of liquid fuels declines - as I believe it will - then the global availability of food will do likewise. In addition, the tendency of newly affluent societies, such as China and India, to consume more meat and dairy products reduces the supply of grain available for the poorer segments of the global population. A key point is that we are in overshoot right now, and have been for decades. If Catton is correct, we are not approaching the problem; rather, we went past the point of no return half-a-century ago. That suggests the correction of overshoot will be profound.

Environmental overshoot is a fancy way of saying what you said. But the implication of overshoot is dieoff. Some believe - and I am among them - that a substantial percentage of the world's population will perish due to famine. Disease, war, and other factors may be the immediate cause of death, but the underlying problem will be too many people for the available resources.

The conversation has occurred in other places, and at other times. In the great majority of cases, some sort of triage strategy comes up. In essence, the discussion focuses on who should survive, and who should not. At this point, emotions tend to be engaged. We (whoever we is) want "our kind", or "the most worthy" (whatever those terms mean) to survive. Those people (this means anyone other than "our kind" or "the most worthy") are invariably less desirable. At that point, discussions tend to heat up. I have the greatest respect for the members of this forum, and so I believe that if the conversation can occur anywhere, it will be here.

In essence, there appear to be three possibilities.

Innovation is one. Global shared sacrifice and power-down is the second. Dieoff, planned or otherwise, is the third.

Innovation has worked since Malthus first observed the problem. Perhaps it will solve the problems. I'm betting it won't. Quite literally betting - I've purchased DBA, which is an ETF that goes up when grain prices increase.

Shared sacrifice, with we in the west adopting a diet largely devoid of meat and dairy products, along with other wrenching changes, is a strategy one sometimes comes across. I don't think human nature will permit such an approach to work, but there is a lot I don't know about human nature.

Dieoff is the third option. Unplanned dieoff, where no one does anything and the situation gets steadily worse in areas that cannot afford significantly higher food prices, seems most likely. This seems to increase the possibility of instability, both within affected areas and globally. The last possibility that I perceive is planned dieoff. By some mechanism, the population of those people (however defined) is pruned, or allowed to decline, for the benefit of the rest of us. That last possibility is the one that often generates rancor.

Dieoff may be rapid or slow, and there are proponents of each viewpoint. Slow dieoff is likely to be quite destructive as people do whatever it takes to survive. Some believe that the end result might be an environment that could support a global population in the hundreds of millions - total. A rapid dieoff would create (perhaps) less damage, but would be more wrenching in the short term.

When one factors in possibilities such as mass migrations of desperate refugees, nuclear blackmail, failed states, terrorism, and other factors, one might be excused for seeing interesting times.

As I mentioned earlier, I very much appreciate the original post. If such issues can be discussed anywhere, it is among the good people and QP's of this forum. And I respectfully suggest it is an important issue to consider, from both the personal and the policy perspectives.
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Old 08-02-2008, 14:08   #25
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The Malthusian line of reasoning is a dangerous one.

The logical progression of this reasoning reduces humans to the level of livestock.

Eventually, the value of a life is a number representing an economic value.
Actuaries become arbiters of life and death.

The slide is already well underway:
http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/C...e_is_not_right

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08071705.html

Human life either has dignity apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, or it does not.

Choose carefully.
The lucky among us will one day be old and less useful to society.


Concerning Africa, I am of the opinion that "teach a man to fish" is the best policy.
Human life has diginity, part of that dignity is liberty and self-determination.

Help those willing to help themselves.
However, being an enabler to irresponsible decisions demeans the dignity of a rational, capable adult.

If people knowlingly choose a path for themselves which leads to death, little can be done to stop them.
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Old 08-02-2008, 15:16   #26
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You make a variety of good points, Grateful Citizen.

The first article you posted - the one by Cal Thomas - is interesting, but may well be too optimistic. It mentions the determination by several groups that human life has a value of millions of dollars.

The concepts of overshoot and dieoff, taken to their logical conclusion, implies one must see human numbers not in actuarial terms, but rather as competition for scarce resources. Human life, then, would not have a positive value; rather, each life would represent a negative. Thus, elimination of each life would become a positive. Please note that I do not say I desire or advocate such a position.

Nonetheless, I suspect we are on track toward precisely that state of affairs. Unless a great many leaders choose very wisely, we may well get there. There is historical precedent.
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Old 08-02-2008, 17:01   #27
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First of all I DO NOT have the answer

One point that was made was don't mess with Mother Nature. She has her own way of dealing with over population. She either causes famine, plague, pestilence or war. Any of which lowers the population back to what the land will support. If mother nature has her way, then 500,000 will die of famine and the land is back in balance. We, however, feed those 500,000 and make the land attempt now to support 5,000,000. We do nothing to teach the "land keepers" how to increase their yield, do not assist in conservation, only give until it hurts. Now mother nature has to do something about the not 500,000 but the 5,000,000.

Have we really "saved any" or have we condemned more to death?

Right now our policy of hands off give aways and allowing corrupt idiots to skim 75% off the top for trickle down crumbs is not getting done what needs to be done.

I do not have the answer, I only know that what we are doing is incorrect.

Guy - Something good had to come from your trip to the land of your forefathers. Besides the plane taking you home.

Sorry bro, couldn't resist.
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Old 08-02-2008, 23:04   #28
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Guy - Something good had to come from your trip to the land of your forefathers. Besides the plane taking you home.

Sorry bro, couldn't resist.
The only good I got from Africa was working "side-by-side" with QPs. The rest sucked!

Stay safe.
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:13   #29
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I hear that Guy! I am not "mad" at you. I was just giving my little 2 cents. I usually try come to PS and LEARN more than comment. I just felt that subject was one that could use a different voice. I am in no rush to get sick or have any of the other unfortunate circumstances happen to me... but if I get to visit Africa (on the Army's Dime) or my own I will find something positive out of the experience. I guess it's all old stuff to you at this point, you have 10 years on me and obviously many more deployments. One day (even if it's under unpleasant circumstances) I hope to see "the motherland". Guess I should stop chasing women in Miami and the Caribbean huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy View Post
I FEEL YOU!

Bigblue:I've had the above "classification" bestowed upon me for 44+ years. Every time I've been to the "Motherland" Africa. Numerous things would occur which I didn't care for:

I got sick
Someone wanted me dead
Some thing wanted to eat me
It sucked
Tried to rip me off
Tried to help; SOBs were corrupt
Harrassed and called all sorts of names
Dysentery
Severe diarhhea
Hungry as hell
Humped a ruck until I almost passed out
Dehydration
Non-potable water
Bit by I don't know what type of insects
Etc., etc, etc....

More power too ya'll and Africa; have at it! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!

Stay safe.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:04   #30
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Originally Posted by Bigblue View Post
I hear that Guy! I am not "mad" at you. I was just giving my little 2 cents. I usually try come to PS and LEARN more than comment. I just felt that subject was one that could use a different voice. I am in no rush to get sick or have any of the other unfortunate circumstances happen to me... but if I get to visit Africa (on the Army's Dime) or my own I will find something positive out of the experience. I guess it's all old stuff to you at this point, you have 10 years on me and obviously many more deployments. One day (even if it's under unpleasant circumstances) I hope to see "the motherland". Guess I should stop chasing women in Miami and the Caribbean huh?
BigBlue
Guy and I go way back and we both have spent a lot of time overseas and several trips to Africa.
Guy is right about all the points he made.

I do not understand why everyone wants to call their country that their Great Great Great Granddad the Motherland. I have roots from Germany, England, USA (Sioux) and Latin America. I am a Mutt just like all Americans are. By calling your self Irish-American, German-American, African-American, etc etc. We are American and if you want to use the term Motherland it is here in the Good Old USA no mater what color your skin is or where your ancestors came from. Until Americans stop dividing them selfs with this Hyphen we are never going to completely be a cohesive country it is very divisive. That is what I like about the military. When you put the uniform on your were and are still Green and you put the divisions aside for the mission and service. Yes there are Racial and ethnic problems but they are not allowed to effect the over operation of the military and its mission.

Back on subject: I personally have never been to any of the 53 countries I have had the pleasure of visiting and not found some good people and beautiful countryside. Go to all the African Capitals and just kill everyone. They are corrupt in All of them. Take me into the country side and I can find good hearted people that are disadvantaged and only want some food on the table and the table to put it onto. The problem is the ones that are trying to get things the easy way and the 2-5% that have money and do not want anyone to have any. Look at Mozambique.......

I too have been assaulted by the same units that we are training, property stolen, bitten and stung by everything I come in contact with. All I can say is I have been there, seen a lot of Bad and some good and I can honestly say I have no desire to go back. And this is from a guy who lives in a third world country and Loves it.

My humble Opinion is that Until the Africans decide to clean up their act in all aspects they will never go anywhere no matter how much world aid is provided.
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