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Old 04-08-2007, 19:28   #106
TPD1280
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curioser and curioser..

It would appear that Murray Neal did not invent DS, but rather bought it from the company for which he was a salesman.

Neal was given money by DOD to further develop DS for use by the military. He sure didn't spend it on adhesives.

The actual originator is now released from the non-competition clause in the sale and is ready to get back in the game.

http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:46   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPD1280
It would appear that Murray Neal did not invent DS, but rather bought it from the company for which he was a salesman.

Neal was given money by DOD to further develop DS for use by the military. He sure didn't spend it on adhesives.

The actual originator is now released from the non-competition clause in the sale and is ready to get back in the game.

http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm

Seems someone has opened Pandora’s box and creditability is lacking.

Thank you "TPD1280" for posting that, funny how the truth is found on the internet.

I guess Murray Neal didn't spend the money the ARMY gave him fixing the problems with Dragon Skin, he must have spent it all on advertising.....

Murray Neal did NOT invent the armor, funny, from his website sure sounds like he did…….. and I quote…..

Pinnacle Armor was founded by a noted inventor and author in the field of ballistic armor, Murray Neal. Mr. Neal has relied on his combined expertise of ballistic sciences and field experience to jointly achieve a quantum leap in technology-the first flexible body armor that defeats rifle fire. Now you can wear armor that flexes and molds to the contours of your body and allows for greater coverage than a rigid 10" x 12" plate which is the typical coverage offered in current technology.
SOV™ flexible armor is completely fabricated in the USA for American Special Forces, Police Tactical Teams and approved foreign militaries.


http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

In reference to Mr Neals advertising I as a Special Forces soldier say NO American Special Forces soldiers are wearing Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin, none zero nada.

Let me say that again, No American Special Forces soldiers are wearing Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin.

I’m always amazed at those who "use" our (American Special Forces soldiers) hard earned reputation paid for in blood, to advertise their wares. Mr. Neal care to comment on the above quote taken from your website?

No one has yet told me who in the Special Operations Forces (SOF) community has worn Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin body armor in harms way. Funny how internet companies, corporations etc can stretch the truth, funny how the sheeple take that sort of advertising hook line and sinker.

Interesting how defensereview.com or SFTT.org has not yet picked up this story..... yes I called both of you "internet tabloids".

Mr Crane what say you now? You still doubt the Army testing of Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin? Where are you David Crane, care to comment? (Or are you afraid of losing your paying sponsors? Oh and by the way Professionalsoldiers.com has no sponsors, no advertising; this website is entirely owned and operated by genuine American Special Forces soldiers, no one pulls our strings Mr Crane, no one.)

Dr. Gary Roberts (dentist), LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center do you have any integrity left? Again Dr. Roberts, why oh why do you leave out the "FACT" that you are a doctor of dentistry every time I see your name on the internet? (Just like on this webpage http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/20061005-pr.php )

Does anyone know that "doctor" Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center is nothing more than a DENTIST? Yet he continues to argue with bona fide Trauma Surgeons concerning terminal ballistics effects on human tissue? (I’m continually amazed at the level of human stupidity; then again Dr Dentist does hang out at the “tacticalchildrensforums.com)

Integrity and creditability is sorely lacking. How do you people look at yourselves in the mirror.

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Old 04-09-2007, 10:00   #108
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Quote:
Interesting how defensereview.com or SFTT.org has not yet picked up this story..... yes I called both of you "internet tabloids".
Right, but I was the troop-hating son of a bitch that wanted to deny better kit to soldiers - second only to General Benedict Arnold himself in my treason.

I am still waiting for my apology from the Crew That Never Wore Body Armor In Their Lives.

NousDefionsDoc For The Truth supporting Team Sergeant For The Truth.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:07   #109
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The Truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From Evolutionarmor.com:

The Flexible Rifle Armor Concept

There has been much publicity behind the scalar type armor made of discus shaped tiles called "Dragon Skin". Pinnacle Armor has also been at odds with the military as it pertains to why the military hasn't adopted this system.

There are quite a few reasons, and if you have read the Pinnacle Armor propaganda you will hear about tales of fraud, sabotage, and protection of the good old boy network as it relates to the "Interceptor Vest". I can tell you as someone who works with the military on this kind of endeavor there are a lot of reasons why this armor hasn't been universally adopted and the reasons above are basically false. The truth is Pinnacle Armor received clearance to forward samples to the Army and was paid 170,000 dollars, and that was after they were paid almost a 1,000,000.00 dollars to develop the armor from where we left off after we sold patent rights to Pinnacle Armor in October of 2000.

The major flaw was not observing the Article One testing environmental conditioning protocol, which calls for the armor to withstand 165 degrees F for 6 hours. After five years of development and having the protocol in hand you would figure that the adhesive used to affix the tiles to the high strength fabric would be of the high temperature variety, it wasn't, and because of that these vests failed. OOPS!


We certainly won't be the ones to say the technology isn't good, we believe it is the future, but since our non-compete agreement expired with Pinnacle Armor we have entered the market and have our own flexible armor that doesn't use dependent claims to achieve a workable tile capable of flexible operation and defeat of the A.P. rifle threats. Kodos for Pinnacle Armor and their saves with this system, but we're back and soon will enter the market with fully functional flexible rifle armor.

The fact is most of Pinnacle Armor's systems were invented by Allan D. Bain formally of Armor Technology Corp.. Pinnacle Armor started manufacturing after we educated Mr. Neal how to make armor by contract executed in October of 2000 that was fair and honestly fulfilled. Pinnacle Armor and Mr. Neal never manufactured any body armor prior to this date. So if you hear about Pinnacle Armor or the "Dragon Skin" armor being manufactured since 1995 your talking about armor that Pinnacle Armor never made or developed. In fact Murray Neal was a sales representative for Armor Technology from 1997 - October of 2000 a company owned entirely by Allan D. Bain, the true inventor of Dragon Skin.

In a few months look for our products as they leave the development stage and begin service. For more info review our products page for updates as they occur.

http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm


You know that's going to leave a mark.

evolutionarmor.com, we look forward to your products.

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Old 04-10-2007, 10:13   #110
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The major flaw was not observing the Article One testing environmental conditioning protocol, which calls for the armor to withstand 165 degrees F for 6 hours. After five years of development and having the protocol in hand you would figure that the adhesive used to affix the tiles to the high strength fabric would be of the high temperature variety, it wasn't, and because of that these vests failed. OOPS!http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm

So if I read the information correctly from both Pinnacle Armor website and Evolutionarmor website the problem with Dragon Skin is the "fact" that it catastrophically fails under high heat.

In other words, let’s say you’re a cop in Phoenix, or a soldier in Baghdad. You wake up to take your 3:00 PM shift and your Pinnacle Armor DRAGON SKIN body armor was left in your car out in the hot sun. The outside temp is a mere 110 degrees (that occurs quite often during the summer in Phoenix, what say you soldiers in Baghdad? Does it get to 110 degrees there? ) but inside your car it’s almost 200 degrees.
( a study done by those that brought us dynamite http://www.tyvekcarcovers.com/english/carcover2.html )

You don your Dragon Skin armor and are promptly shot by some crazed AK wielding bad-guy. You didn’t have time to wait the 90 minutes as Pinnacle Dragon Skin SOV-2000 Test by "dentist" Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center states below and I quote;

Pinnacle Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III armor was also tested the week of October 2, 2006 by Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center. These tests were conducted for a local law enforcement agency, as a control sample a stand-alone Armored Mobility Incorporated (AMI) level III steel composite plate armor was used for comparison. Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 degrees F, then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 min prior to being shot.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/20061005-pr.php



And you die.



Thank you “dentist” Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center (doctor of dentistry). Thank you for lending your dental expertise to the field of body armor and thank god few listen to you, defensereview.com or SFTT.org.

And LCDR Gary Roberts of the United States Naval Reserve, if you knew about this chink in the Pinnacle Armor DRAGON SKIN body armor may you rot in hell.

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Old 04-10-2007, 10:27   #111
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I wish that the powers that be spent more time worrying about whether the soldiers had what they needed and less about rice bowls and where they were going to go to work after retirement.

There are way too many internet experts who got everything they know from someone else, rather than strapping it on and trying it out for themselves under realistic conditions. That easily leads to being duped and spun on a product.

Guys like Karl are doing their duty and saving soldiers lives.

It is a real shame that marketing and hype are accepted as fact, and the soldiers should have to pay the price to find out it is false.

The sad fact is that the SOF procurement system works better than the Big Army's. Mainly because they are not opposed to COTS, if it is actually better, and they T&E with real troops and solicit their feedback before handing out billions of dollars developing and buying crap that some beltway bandit wanted to sell them. Look at the OICW and Land Warrior programs for great examples of how not to develop or buy soldier equipment.

Keep up the fire, Karl.

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Old 04-11-2007, 08:35   #112
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TR,

Thanks, CHARLIE MIKE

Karl
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Old 04-17-2007, 19:38   #113
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House Representative calls for dragon skin to be allowed

I was channel surfing tonight and stopped on C-span briefly to listen to a live feed from the US House of Representatives, then I realized the Representative was talking about Dragon Skin. I tuned in.

Rep. Mike Ross, D-Arkansas of Pine Bluff, Eldorado Hotsprings was talking at about 919pm tonight. He called for soldiers to be allowed to wear Dragon Skin because it was better than Interceptor armor. He claimed that the armor had been subjected to bias testing and that the company claims Dragon Skin failed no tests.

He stated that while regular US Army soldiers cannot wear the armor NSA, CIA, USSS Presidential team, and some special forces soldiers wear the armor.

...yeah i took a couple notes

Basically he repeated all the Dragon Skin propaganda that has been ousted here.

Just an FYI

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Old 04-17-2007, 20:21   #114
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When I asked Soldiers for Truth if they were concerned about soldiers, or just anti-establishment, they accused me of "listening to Army propaganda" and made a couple of personal attacks.

When you have to result to personal attacks to defend your position, your credibility is less than zero.

FWIW, politicians don't get elected for their IQ.
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Old 04-27-2007, 12:59   #115
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In 2006, Congress asked the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to investigate the US Army and USMC body armor programs.

Today, the GAO released their report.

The report is entitled "Army and Marine Corps Individual Body Armor System Issues", GAO-07-662R, 26 April 2007, and is available to the public.

Link to GAO website & report: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07662r.pdf

GAO found that both United States Army and United States Marine Corps body armor programs are meeting warfighter threat requirements.

The GAO visited service installations, reviewed readiness reports, and found no supply problems or shortages.

GAO had no findings or recommendations for the Department of Defense.
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Old 04-27-2007, 18:22   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl.Masters
In 2006, Congress asked the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to investigate the US Army and USMC body armor programs.

Today, the GAO released their report.

The report is entitled "Army and Marine Corps Individual Body Armor System Issues", GAO-07-662R, 26 April 2007, and is available to the public.

Link to GAO website & report: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07662r.pdf

GAO found that both United States Army and United States Marine Corps body armor programs are meeting warfighter threat requirements.

The GAO visited service installations, reviewed readiness reports, and found no supply problems or shortages.

GAO had no findings or recommendations for the Department of Defense.
That's going to leave a mark.

Guess there’s no conspiracy or corruption in the way the military tests armor. Good news for our fighting men and bad news for Pinnacle Armor, defensereview.com, SFTT.org and the rest of the idiotic websites that cried conspiracy or corruption.

I guess Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin Body armor just really sucks.

I’m waiting for defensereview.com and Mr. Crane, SFTT.org, Pinnacle Armor, et al to post the fact that the US GAO is corrupt. Morons and internet tabloids, here's your koolaid.

Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center (doctor of dentistry) what do you say now? I’m sure your findings will contradict the GAO’s report?

Thank you LTC Masters for standing your ground and doing right by the men and women of the US Armed Forces.

This thread is almost done……

Mr. Crane, defensereview.com; Professionalsoldiers.com and Karl Masters are waiting for an apology.

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Old 04-27-2007, 19:52   #117
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Excuse me, I've got some crow to serve to some "experts". Be right back.
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Old 04-27-2007, 20:13   #118
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Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center (doctor of dentistry)

You are my next objective.

I fully intend to write the Department of the Navy about your using your Navy credentials to further a product that catastrophically failed military testing and would have placed our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen in a life threatening situation.

You are a dishonor to your branch, your nation and the Navy.

You disgust me.

I will see you removed from the Navy.

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Old 04-28-2007, 10:24   #119
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Marine Corps BAN Dragon Skin body armor

I'm betting that GAO report left a mark on the Corps also.

There's only one reason the US military most powerful ground combatants ban an item, it doesn't work.

Good luck Mr. Murray Neal selling your snake oil to the uninformed masses.

Team Sergeant




Corps bans off-the-shelf body armor

By John Hoellwarth - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Apr 23, 2007 10:02:41 EDT

Don’t bother buying your own high-tech body armor. You can’t wear it, according to a Corps-wide message released Tuesday that mandates only government-issued “personal protective equipment.”

The policy shift puts an end to the use of store-bought vests, helmets, eye protection, ballistic plates, flame-resistant clothing, earplugs and anything else that would replace “government tested, approved and issued” gear Marines receive from their supply sections, according to MarAdmin 262/07.

Marines are still allowed to use commercially purchased protective items “in addition to those issued by the government, as long as additions do not interfere with the functionality of approved PPE,” the message states.

In March of last year, the Army issued a similar order amid growing concern among troops that military-issued body armor was inferior to the Dragon Skin vest manufactured by Pinnacle Armor of Fresno, Calif.

Murray Neal, Pinnacle’s chief executive officer, called the Corps’ policy change “disappointing” but said he anticipates Dragon Skin sales will increase as they did when the Army banned it because of public distrust over the government’s motives for banning body armor some believe to be superior.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...or_ban_070419/
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Old 04-28-2007, 11:22   #120
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Another tibit I found on the internet. I guess U.S. Representative Mike Ross (Dem) Arkansas's Fourth Congressional District didn't get the GAO report that is now public. Wake up Mr Ross.

Team Sergeant




FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 16, 2007 Contact: Jon Niven
(202) 225-0753

Ross to Call for Full Investigation
Into Body Armor for Troops


(Washington, D.C.) U.S. Representative Mike Ross (AR-04) plans to call for a full, unbiased, external investigation to explore whether the U.S. Army is using the most effective body armor and equipment available for our troops’ protection.


The issue at hand involves the U.S. Army’s recent testing and comparison of Pinnacle Armor’s “Dragon Skin” body armor and the Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) currently in use by the Armed Forces. This issue was brought to the attention of Ross by a constituent whose son is a member of Arkansas’s 39th Infantry Brigade, which was recently informed that they could be deployed to Iraq by the end of the year.

“I believe that it is our duty and obligation to supply our troops, who risk their lives on a daily basis, with the most advanced technology and resources available,” Ross said. “We owe it to all soldiers and their families to ensure that our troops are given the finest armor and equipment available. We must resolve this issue for our soldiers’ welfare and their families’ peace of mind.”

Ross is enlisting the support of his colleagues in House of Representatives by asking them to sign onto a bipartisan letter he plans to send to the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of the Army. Ross said that his letter will demand that the most stringent tests possible be conducted to resolve recent reports that have led many to question whether our troops are being given access to the absolute best body armor available.

In response to equipment shortages in 2005, some troops purchased equipment at their own expense, including body armor, and Congress enacted legislation to reimburse these soldiers. Months later however, the Army issued a “Safety of Use Message,” in which they prohibited the use of any body armor except for the IBA and dispelled reports that Dragon Skin was superior to the IBA, citing that Dragon Skin has failed various tests and therefore, does not meet the Army’s requirements for Soldier Body Armor protection.



“As a result of this message by the Army, if a soldier purchases and uses any armor other than the IBA, their action will be construed as though the soldier has disobeyed a direct order and could jeopardize his or her receiving Service Group Life Insurance, if killed in combat,” Ross says in the letter that he intends to send to the Pentagon. “This concerns me greatly because our combat soldiers should not be denied the use of the latest and most effective body armor, regardless of the cost involved, if it will result in the preservation of their lives.”



Military support organizations such as “Soldiers for the Truth” along with Dragon Skin manufacturer Pinnacle Armor argue that Dragon Skin did not fail any tests, stating that the testing was biased and stands behind their assertions that Dragon Skin is superior to the IBA.

Pinnacle also notes that Dragon Skin has been approved and is used by the U.S. Air Force, CIA, NSA, U.S. Department of Energy officials in Iraq, the U.S. Secret Service Presidential Protection detail, some Special Forces Units, and various police departments and SWAT teams around the nation.

“I am calling for an unbiased, external investigation to determine whether the IBA is the most effective armor available and if additional testing reveals that Dragon Skin Body Armor is, in fact, superior, then the Army should provide it to our troops,” Ross said. “My only goal is to protect our troops in harm’s way by ensuring that they receive the most advanced body armor on the market today as they carry out their mission.”


-30-


http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...nk&cd=14&gl=us
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