Old 11-27-2005, 19:18   #46
slipshoe
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Alice Frame Failure

Well, being an IET soldier, I'll call this my $0.01....but seeing as how I've been an IET soldier for nearly 2 years without a delay in training or injury, maybe I have more credibility than most. Anyway, when comparing the alice packs I've had access to and the civilian Lowe Alpine model I've used for about 5 years, I would give anything to use something closer to the internal frame Lowe Alpine. At least with regards to frame and comfort.

Here are my complaints with the Alice frame:
1. I broke a brand-new frame with a 40-50 lbs sandbag in the radio compartment. We were having a competition that day, so everyone just had sand bags, and I figured it would be best to distribute the weight up high. Anyway, as soon as I took up a jog during a level stretch, the frame cracked right in the middle of the cross section, and began to poke me in the back. It was a competition, so I just ignored it... nevertheless, after that it was sooo distracting.
2. Even before I broke that frame and with the other frames I had in basic, I noticed noises and squeaks coming from the joints of the frame. I tried taping them, but that never seemed to help much.
3. No matter how I adjust the straps, the top of the frame always seems to hit me in the back of the neck, which makes it really difficult to look up, or take any kind of prone position--I usually dump the ruck, or loosen the straps when I drop to make it easier.

I will say that during the times we wore flak vests, I hardly notice any discomfort from the thin straps, but the squeaking and getting jabbed in the neck is still an issue.
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Old 11-27-2005, 19:35   #47
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slipshoe:

Yet another guest who fails to read the rules or follow them. Total lack of SA.

Read all of the stickies and post in the proper place before posting elsewhere again.

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Old 12-30-2005, 01:51   #48
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I have not really seen anything in here mentioned about the SOF Ruck made by Balckhawk Industires. I know it is supposed to be an improved verions of the ALICE with LOTS of external pockets and such. I have been torn between that, and an internal aluminum frame ALICE for doing some ruck training and camping. How does everyone feel about this pack? http://elitetacticalsources.com/imag.../BlackH172.jpg

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Old 12-30-2005, 02:14   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeful_20
I have not really seen anything in here mentioned about the SOF Ruck made by Balckhawk Industires. I know it is supposed to be an improved verions of the ALICE with LOTS of external pockets and such.
Do you really consider "LOTS of external pockets and such" to be an improvement? Take a look at military models of KIFARU. Or even good old ALICE. There are not that many external pockets and it's not without a reason. Well desigend pack with easy access to inside and limited number of extermnal pockets (or none at all) is far better when say running through heavy foliage, getting fast out of vehicle etc. At least that's my own experience and my point of view...
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Old 12-30-2005, 07:52   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeful_20
...SOF Ruck made by Balckhawk Industires... I have been torn between that, and an internal aluminum frame ALICE for doing some ruck training and camping...
disclaimer:: The below is based solely on my experience as a student at SWC.

If your plan is to train with a ruck for a future shot at SFAS just buy a used large ruck and frame. Put 45lbs in it and move out. Its not just walking with weight on your back you are getting used to but also the way the ALICE pack rides on your shoulders and hips. Nothing else brings pain like the Green Tick. If you are not preping for a future shot at SFAS then by all means purchase what you want, but I would go with an internal frame.

I dont have an SOF ruck so I wont comment on them other than to say I dont buy ANYTHING made by BHI and know many people here who dont either. I want to buy once, not twice.

Kifaru makes great packs. I have both a Marauder and a Zulu and like them both equally well. I have had a few internal frame packs and like the Kifaru line the best. They are well designed comfortable and have a lifetime guarantee.

As for the addition of pockets to the outside being an "improvement;" to those individuals forced to use an ALICE pack the addition of external pockets is a VAST improvement over not having them. I have seen quite a few SF guys and students during my tenure here at SWC carrying modified ALICE packs with pockets sewn to every part of the alice body thats not covered by the frame. I had a few pockets added to mine prior to heading to PH-II and did quite a bit of running thru heavy foliage as well as unassing LMTV's and had no more of a problem with it than anyone of the guys struggling with their 100+ lb rucks without mod'd pockets. The only drawback I see to adding pockets is the more space you have the more you will pack.

As a matter of fact, both my Marauder and Zulu are covered with external pockets. Thats why the PALS are there; for the addidion of pockets as mission dictates.

HTH,

Crip
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Old 12-30-2005, 08:31   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PiterM
Do you really consider "LOTS of external pockets and such" to be an improvement? Take a look at military models of KIFARU. Or even good old ALICE. There are not that many external pockets and it's not without a reason. Well desigend pack with easy access to inside and limited number of extermnal pockets (or none at all) is far better when say running through heavy foliage, getting fast out of vehicle etc. At least that's my own experience and my point of view...
I do, but what do I know.

Try finding a Claymore, a smoke grenade, a cleaning rod, a first aid kit, or your snivel gear inside a ruck with no pockets. Note the PALS webbing on the outside of the Kifaru rucks and the multitude of accessory pockets that they sell.

James is dead on the money. Most field soldiers would like to add MORE pockets to their ruck.

I wouldn't choose a Blackhawk product if I were serious though.

TR
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Old 12-30-2005, 12:46   #52
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OK, got the point...

But... that brings another question to my mind. Do you prefer standard packs with fixed combination of pockets or modular packs, which can be customized for the very mission? First solution seems to be quite logical as you always know where is what and you can grab what you need instantly, without even thinking. However, on the other hand, if you can customize the pack before the action, you can also optimize the gear / weapon you take on your back. Which option is more often prefered?

(BTW, now I read & learn)
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Old 12-30-2005, 12:53   #53
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If you always carry the same gear, configured the same way, fixed is fine. Then you have nothing to lose or fall off, or fumble locating. Most soldiers fall into this category, only changing loads as they are assigned to crew-served weapons.

If you require flexibility due to changing equipment, mission, or organization, then modular is better. Note the changing over to the MOLLE system here in the US, Early versions left much to be desired, but the current generation is pretty good.

There is always going to be some anal CO or SNCO who wants everyone to put their gear together the same way so that they look good on parades. For them, a starched potato sack or Boy Scout ruck is probably best.

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Old 12-30-2005, 21:40   #54
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Alright, so stay away from the SOF ruck, Roger.

Reaper,
I had read your rucking post which was very indepth, and enlightening. I have heard from a few Rangers that also rucking with that same weight range for training anywhere from 45-60lbs max is what a hopeful candidate will want to do to alleviate, and avoid possible injury. What I was a little curious about is, I know alot of you Special Forces operators are rucking anywhere from 100-120lbs downrange. I do rem you saying boss that you should ruck with 45-55lbs as a max, but how do you condition yourself to humping a sometimes 50% inscrease in weight?? One thing I found interesting is the amount of weight for a static line parachute jump, or even a HALO jump where you can be carrying about 185-210 lbs

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar
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Old 12-30-2005, 22:06   #55
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There are times in your life you'll be required to perform an exceedingly difficult task to the best of your ability, regardless of your perceived capability. Mental toughness is what will carry the day during these times. In other words, you suck it up and do what you have to do.
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Old 12-30-2005, 22:10   #56
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As a slight aside, the NZ Army is issuing new webbing now that is completely MOLLE, as well as new packs soon with I've heard are MOLLE but I can't confirm that right now.
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Old 12-30-2005, 22:35   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeful_20
Alright, so stay away from the SOF ruck, Roger.

Reaper,
I had read your rucking post which was very indepth, and enlightening. I have heard from a few Rangers that also rucking with that same weight range for training anywhere from 45-60lbs max is what a hopeful candidate will want to do to alleviate, and avoid possible injury. What I was a little curious about is, I know alot of you Special Forces operators are rucking anywhere from 100-120lbs downrange. I do rem you saying boss that you should ruck with 45-55lbs as a max, but how do you condition yourself to humping a sometimes 50% inscrease in weight?? One thing I found interesting is the amount of weight for a static line parachute jump, or even a HALO jump where you can be carrying about 185-210 lbs

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar
How do you practice for being shot without being shot?

You should have read the number of times here where I have told civilian wannabes to focus on the 25 meter target.

Odds are less than 1 in 4 that you will have to worry about it. Just follow the instructions and as Razor said, BPT embrace the suck.

TR
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Old 12-30-2005, 22:53   #58
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Reaper, and Razor

Understood.

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Tyler Consugar
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Old 01-23-2006, 22:07   #59
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Speaking from my short time under my ruck, I have to say that my MALICE II from tactical tailor with Eagle straps and kidney pad/belt is as comfortable as I could imagine a ruck being. Minimal raw skin on my lower back/sides and I run my Camel-Bak out of the top pouch and into the chest strap to hold it in place for easy access.
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Old 01-24-2006, 17:09   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeful_20
Reaper, and Razor

Understood.

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar
Tyler, Tyler, Tyler...

I wondered how long it would take you to find this board.

Training no matter what you’re doing should build you up to face the challenge you expect to encounter. A buddy/mentor of mine always poses the question whenever we conduct training that may appear to be a little “out there’. His question is “Might you have to ______ in combat?” He has filled in the blank with “shoot from a car while driving”, “climb a rope while fully kitted”, “carry another man while closing on a target”, “fight through a house full of smoke”, “climb thru a third-story window as a split-ops team”, “fight hand-to-hand after being pepper spayed”, “fire from your weak side”, “buddy-carry 230lb team-mate and his 100lb rucksack”, “shoot thru a pane glass window”, “pull a wounded team-mate from a HMMV turret”.

Sure you can work on rucking a little smarter, such as comfy boots and rucksacks but the time quickly arrives when ya need to pull on the old jungle boots and strap on the ALICE to get used to the “burn” of an overloaded ALICE. I’m one of the “hurts so good” jungle boots and ALICE pack guys myself.

Once in the Pipeline you’ll quickly realize “how you measure up” regarding all aspects of manhood… rucking, running, flutter-kicks, drinking tolerance, small unit tactics, womanizing prowess, shooting ability, brain-power, humor, map reading, swimming, pull-ups, airborne ops, apparel, care of kit, finances, and of course common sense. These are just a few of the indicators we use in our constant evaluation of others and self. You can be a “stud at rucking”, but a “tird at flutter kicks”, or “suck at land-nav”, but “awesome at mortars”. So work on your rucking and don’t be “that guy” but be that “go-to guy”.
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