Disobeying orders

[lksteve]

adding to the list, the Whisky Rebellion, shortly after Independence...the 1932 Bonus March, broken up by General MacArthur...there have been several occasions where American troops have confronted the citizenry...here's hoping it doesn't happen again, but the oath says "Against all enemies, foreign and domestic" when it comes to defending the Constitution...

[Sweetbriar]

I'm very much aware of those incidents. However, it's been a couple of generations since then and no one alive now has had to deal with it. From what little first person accounts I've read of the War Between the States, it wasn't straightforward for those who had family or friends on both sides.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

I'm very much aware of those incidents. However, it's been a couple of generations since then and no one alive now has had to deal with it. From what little first person accounts I've read of the War Between the States, it wasn't straightforward for those who had family or friends on both sides.

You obviously do not know about the times troops have been called upon to secure their own military facilities. It got nasty during the VN conflict and I will tell you from personal experience that when the unwashed decided to come after you as a representative of the government they claim to hate, not one of the folks standing toe to toe with me would have had any problem gutting them. It becomes difficult at times to look at folks as fellow citizens when their first instinct is to do harm to you when you are the one that is protecting their rights in the first place. They may have a right to free speach in this country but they do not have a right to be heard at the expense of the rights of others. It is not so much a matter of self preservation but the warrior instinct that takes over and the importance of looking out for the man on your left and right. It is why soldiers should never be used as cops. No, there are some of us that have been there in this generation.

[The Reaper]

More recently?

Anyone remember Detroit 1968?

TR

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

More recently?

i spent part of the summer of 1972 at Homestead AFB on strip alert for potential riots and such during the Democratic and Republican conventions...

[Tubbs]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

I think there is something in play here regarding A Soldier's quandary that American soldiers never have to face, thankfully, and it isn't politics. Israeli soldiers are being ordered to take up arms against fellow Israelis, and civilians at that, for the purpose of creating a state run by the very thugs they are sworn to protect Israel from. There is nothing simple or easy about it. The politics may be that yet another Arab Muslim state is about to be created, but having to wound your own countrymen to do it is not what any soldier expects.

Um... just my $.02, does anyone remember what happened at Kent State Universtiy during Vietnam?

http://www.vietnamwar.com/KentStateKillings.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

My SSgt used to always tell us its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[A Soldier]

The Disengagement has come and gone and my tour of Duty in the Navy is now over I can now honestly say I am a free man and it is nice to smell the sweet smell of freedom.

The Disengagment is one of the most horrendous things this country has to go through, the Assaniation of our Prime-minister Yitzchak Rabin by a fellow Jew tore this country apart in a similar way that the Disengament did. Split it right down the middle between left and right, but as a a nation and as individuals this country has come together and made me proud.

The settlers were evicted from their homes but violence was rare, nobody died . gunplay was never involved, the settlers in a very powerfull statment all turned in their weapons as a statement that they would not fire on the troops who came to evict them.

In the end when the troops came the settlers left peacefully, most left willingly, some had to be talked extensivly out of their homes, and a very small minority had to be physically removed from their homes, more for the cameras benefit than anything else.

When it came down to it we all realised we are each others borthers and you simply cant shoot your'e own brother.

My sister who is in the Army had an officer from her unit go to the disengament , and one of the peopole he was supposed to evict begged him to shoot him rather than take him form his home.
The man was about 40 and a father of 4 I belive, in the end after they cried together the officer told him "That's it we are leaving together", and they did.


It has been a trying time for this country but I belive we came through it together stronger.

It didn't matter if popole belived or didn't belive in the Disnegament and were either for staying or leaving the Gaza strip, we all hurt as a peopole for what happened. And we all realised we are one peopole, one nation.

I read about the war in Iraq and it pains me to hear how soldiers are treated, the vile things said about them. They are merely performing their jobs as handed down through the President to the Armed Forces.

If peopole would just realise that you America are one nation, and one peopole and you could come togehter it would be nice.

Political dissention there always was and always will be, but the politicans should be held accountable not the soldeirs.

I live in a country with a citizens' army so I see what it is like when everyone's sons and daughters serve.

From the son of a wealthy CEO of a company to a the son of a factory worker who can barely make ends meet.

So when peopole demonstrate againt the govement policy, the soldiers are not disrespected because they are not evil men but rather our sons and daughters.

America needs to come thogether as a nation but allow itself to differ in their own opinons.

"Argue but respect one another"

Soryy I have rambled on for too long.

The Disengament was hard on me.

It showed me that patriots dont always wear uniforms and that sometimes protesters can love the country just as much as the soldiers do.


OK getting back to the topic at hand.

The Diengament Plan and the evacuation of the communities from the Gaza Strip.

This is essentialy a case when soldiers take up arms against civillians, this is a very tricky, murky and quagmirish area..


A good example is the Kent State riot as
TUBBS brough up.

Beginning to play devils advocate we might argue about the legality of the

"Tiannamen Square massacre"

Soldiers from the 27th Army of the Peopoles Liberation Army recived orders through their genearals from the "PRC" the Chinese govement to supress the riots in town. Was what they did legal??

Further taking it to an extreme and the soldiers in NAZI death camps were ordered to shoot the inmates, legal or not.

On the other hand look in Louisana with all the rioting the presidnet ordered troops sent in to shoot looters on site. Their were gangs roaming the area performing "Clock Work Orange" stlye gangrapes. Shooting them helped to restore order.

What about not shooting innocents? How do yo define inncoents-Children.

Their are documeted cases of children putting live hand grenades in soldiers hands in vietnam than running away.

Or of children 14 or younger working as Paunzerfaust teams in WWII.

I have heard of children soldiers in Africa who would gut captured enemis with machetes, probably a major danger to any SF soldiers operating there.

Everyone loves to leave legal/illegal orders up in some kind of complex difficult to understand legal mumble jumble but it would be nice if it could be explained in a way soldiers could understand between legal and illegal order.

[FROST18E]

It's a shame that you had to evict and then give back the land that you paid for in blood, from wars you didn't start, to a bunch of scavenging animals who still live in the stone age. God bless you and the state of Isreal.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by A Soldier

Everyone loves to leave legal/illegal orders up in some kind of complex difficult to understand legal mumble jumble but it would be nice if it could be explained in a way soldiers could understand between legal and illegal order.

I think this is where one needs to trust their leadership. The art of war requires many types of tactics along with OPSEC. The little picture may not look right, but it fits into the Big picture. Problem is we are not often privy to the big picture andthe reason for a tactical action, nor should we. Our judgment can be greatly flawed and failure to perform our duty can become very costly to the over-all operation.

As a Marine, I did not need to know why, I need to carry out my orders as best I can. I am very fortunate to have served under exceptional and dedicated leaders. IMHO this is one of the major difference of our military and those under repressive governments. It is reflected in why we serve and the character of those we serve under.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

IAs a Marine, I did not need to know why, I need to carry out my orders as best I can. .

Well actually we want all our SF troops to know not only why but what the commander's intent is a couple of echelons above and below when possible. When everything turns south the original game plan may no longer be feasible and our folks need to have all the requisite information available to make decisions and carry on the effort using intelligent initiative. You see our job is not about following orders but accomplishing the mission when the orders originally issued no longer make sense to meet the commander's intent.

Jack Moroney-strong beliver that in the fog of war it is often more prudent to ask for forgiveness for your troops after the act than having them bogged down waiting for permission to act when lives are at stake