12-10-2016, 04:48
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#2
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
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If I had ever taken a guy I highly suspected was the enemy into my custody as a detainee, then executed him and burned his body, I would go to jail.
If someone raped your kid, then you took him to the woods and set the perp on fire, you would be justified in my book. You would also still go to jail, and shouldn't be surprised. You knew the rules.
I can sympathize with CPT Golsteyn, but there were other ways to deal with this. There were lots of other ways to deal with this that would still get the job done. If in fact he did shoot a detainee, the last thing he should do is talk on TV about it, no matter how justified he thought it was. The Army isn't "screwing him", they are investigating a potential war crime. This seems pretty cut and dry from where I'm sitting.
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scooter is offline
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12-10-2016, 05:21
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Near the flag pole
Posts: 1,168
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He needs to stay out of the media.
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blue02hd is offline
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12-10-2016, 05:48
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#4
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue02hd
He needs to stay out of the media.
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He needed to stay out of the media too late now.
Fixed if for you.
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Oldrotorhead
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Oldrotorhead is offline
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12-10-2016, 05:50
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Near the flag pole
Posts: 1,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldrotorhead
He needed to stay out of the media too late now.
Fixed if for you.
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True Dat!
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blue02hd is offline
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12-10-2016, 06:30
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#6
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Big Sky
Posts: 426
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There are some things from over there that you never discuss publicly!
I thought that was common sense and everyone knew that.
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Exceptions are so inevitable that no rule is without them - except the one just stated. - Paso Por Aqui, by Eugene Manlove Rhodes
"I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people........" George Mason
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sfshooter is offline
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12-10-2016, 09:09
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: State of confusion
Posts: 1,523
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If selection is an ongoing process, he just screwed up big-time. Why give information that leads to putting your head in the noose unless you have some death wish?
Then again, I listened to his explanation and he may want to force the issue of ROE and engagement with the enemy when they are not currently a threat. I've always argued that once you PID them as the enemy - self identified or not - you can engage them; they don't have to constitute a threat. Our written ROE/ROF allows this although many Commanders are hesitant. For instance, I was consulted once by a Big Army unit downrange who had been the recipient of a command-initiated IED. They saw the guy who hit the clapper but unfortunately the dude got away. A few days later they saw the same guy in a crowd downtown and they were told to stand down that he "wasn't a threat". I lay out the rules and the law and the congruent case law in defense of them finding the guy and whacking him. Their command wouldn't go for it - too worried about political repercussions.
Sounds like this is what he may be hanging his hat on. ALTHOUGH....once the cuffs go on, the enemy's status changes. If G merely led him outside the wire while bound/cuffed and popped him, I wouldn't want to be defending him.
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JimP is offline
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12-10-2016, 09:10
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#8
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: May 2010
Location: C.S. Colorado
Posts: 2,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
If I had ever taken a guy I highly suspected was the enemy into my custody as a detainee, then executed him and burned his body, I would go to jail.
If someone raped your kid, then you took him to the woods and set the perp on fire, you would be justified in my book. You would also still go to jail, and shouldn't be surprised. You knew the rules.
I can sympathize with CPT Golsteyn, but there were other ways to deal with this. There were lots of other ways to deal with this that would still get the job done. If in fact he did shoot a detainee, the last thing he should do is talk on TV about it, no matter how justified he thought it was. The Army isn't "screwing him", they are investigating a potential war crime. This seems pretty cut and dry from where I'm sitting.
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Rep Duncan Hunter needs to be more selective of who he stands up for, Goldsteyn is justified and wrong he isn't the first to release a known bomb maker etc, because of ROE but most of us find creative ways within the ROE to make it right. I am concerned that some of the blatantly obvious violations of ROE and or a bad decisions where troops screwed up and are being held accountable that Hunter is getting involved with undermines our leaderships authority. Hey I murdered someone outside the ROE and got caught call Rep Hunter....this is abuse of an advocate which will have long term negative repercussions. He bought the ticket now he is riding the ride he knew it was murder and he covered it up until he couldn't.
I am not against killing bad guys BTDT and this puke deserved to be killed but like all GB's I know there are times we walk on a thin line but if we commit a crime IAW our laws we know there is a penalty. This guys arrogance is amazing he was given a quiet out it seems and he could not shut up in this case using Rep Hunter was no different than a jundi asking for shit until we get sick of it.
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WarriorDiplomat is offline
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12-10-2016, 09:48
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#9
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
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Jim, you're right, as long as you have PID (under OEF ROE, not ISAF), you can shwak him. Our ROE would have allowed us to kill that guy. I've followed a guy on ISR for an hour after he ambushed a convoy, then nuked him when he got clear of civilians and houses. Righteous kill.
As for killing the bomb maker, can't do that if you PUC him. Once he's a detainee the game is up, and that's where this went wrong. There are literally so many other ways to make this guy go away.... Even if you wanted to stay above board, his operation had to have some sort of detainee plan. Hell, saying you had no evidence, and releasing him to the custody of the nearest elder (in this case, the threatened guy) would have worked. But no, cap him in the head and bury him. Then freak out, exhume him, and burn the body.
I'm all for expediency, but this wasn't a righteous shoot based on the evidence available publicly.
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scooter is offline
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12-10-2016, 12:48
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#10
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
Jim, you're right, as long as you have PID (under OEF ROE, not ISAF), you can shwak him. Our ROE would have allowed us to kill that guy. I've followed a guy on ISR for an hour after he ambushed a convoy, then nuked him when he got clear of civilians and houses. Righteous kill.
As for killing the bomb maker, can't do that if you PUC him. Once he's a detainee the game is up, and that's where this went wrong. There are literally so many other ways to make this guy go away.... Even if you wanted to stay above board, his operation had to have some sort of detainee plan. Hell, saying you had no evidence, and releasing him to the custody of the nearest elder (in this case, the threatened guy) would have worked. But no, cap him in the head and bury him. Then freak out, exhume him, and burn the body.
I'm all for expediency, but this wasn't a righteous shoot based on the evidence available publicly.
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I watched the whole interview and towards the end the female recounts events as the bomb maker HAD been a detainee, who was RELEASED due to the ROE at the time.
The good CPT thinking this was wrong, subsequently hunted the guy down and killed him.
Its not clear what the circumstances were at the actual scene of the killing subsequent to the release. If the guy gave himself up again, was taken into custody, then swacked, then that is where it went wrong.
If no surrender was accepted, and the CPT killed the guy as soon as they had PID, then things get less easy to define.
Either way, burning the body was a stupid move that infers guilt, or an effort to hide something.
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CDRODA396 is offline
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12-10-2016, 13:19
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDRODA396
...bomb maker HAD been a detainee, who was RELEASED due to the ROE at the time. The good CPT thinking this was wrong, subsequently hunted the guy down and killed him.
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I know of a group of people (I'm being vague here) that did something like this. They invited some Taliban leadership to come to a shura to discuss their differences. At the meeting, they confirmed it was the dudes in question. They all agreed to disagree, and the Taliban left. Having confirmed they were on the strike/kill list, they let them get 20 yards out of the gate then shot them dead.
Their command did not like this. At all. They opened a criminal investigation into the events, which eventually concluded that 1) they should have just taken them prisoner once PID'd, and 2) they didn't actually break the law as the guys were not in US custody, and had been PID'd.
They didn't go to jail, but the leadership were unceremoniously fired and sent packing, and everyone else split up and sent to different units.
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scooter is offline
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12-10-2016, 13:25
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#12
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 830
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Well Fox replayed the interview today. He dude you weren't buried deep enough take that shovel and make it a foot deeper! Fox is not your friend, they are no better than NBC, CNN or the HOPO
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Oldrotorhead
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Oldrotorhead is offline
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12-12-2016, 18:50
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#13
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: midwest
Posts: 353
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From the article:
"Last summer, newly surfaced Army documents alleged that Golsteyn told the CIA during a polygraph test that he killed an unarmed Afghan bombmaker in his custody and later conspired with others to destroy the body."
Even if he hadn't given the interview, if the above statement is what he actually said, he should have passed on the polygraph and whatever his reason for taking it was.
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Remington Raidr is offline
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12-12-2016, 21:09
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#14
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Italy
Posts: 1,987
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The community is littered with the bodies of people who have implicated themselves on polygraphs taken when applying for a job. I always have felt that we tend to operate in "grey" areas enough that I would never seek a job that required a polygraph.
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sinjefe is offline
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12-13-2016, 03:11
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#15
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinjefe
The community is littered with the bodies of people who have implicated themselves on polygraphs taken when applying for a job. I always have felt that we tend to operate in "grey" areas enough that I would never seek a job that required a polygraph.
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I remember clearly in Robin Sage the G chief holding up a drink, and giving one to the Captain, and making a toast to our recent victory. The good captain wouldn't drink, it had been forbidden by higher. The G chief went apeshit.... After much drama, the captain took the drink, while the instructor winked off to the side.
The lesson was clear. Sometimes following the rules directly hurts accomplishment of the mission, and you should have the presence of mind and maturity to recognize those moments and break the rules. I have no idea if this lesson is institutionalized, or command approved, or still taught..... But it sums up nicely the realities that ODAs face all the time. Sometimes teams go too far, as CPT Golsteyn could attest to.
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scooter is offline
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