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Old 08-14-2017, 07:17   #31
bblhead672
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Actually there is........ and it's on the market. Soon the fundamentals you speak of will be out the door.

https://www.tracking-point.com/

Very very soon it will be point in the general direction and push a button.
The Army will need to increase upper body strength requirements to lug around a 12 pound rifle and its ammo!
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Old 08-14-2017, 07:49   #32
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The Army will need to increase upper body strength requirements to lug around a 12 pound rifle and its ammo!
Did you ever carry an M1 Garand with basic load?? 12lbs, plus.
Or M14 or L1a1 or M60 or .......

In WWII the standard load for the M1 Garand was only 80 rounds, but in Nam my troops carried 420(21qty 20rd mags).

Infantry will carry what ever they need, based on mission and resupply timing.
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Old 08-14-2017, 12:52   #33
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The Army will need to increase upper body strength requirements to lug around a 12 pound rifle and its ammo!
How about a $500 rifle that does ok on the battlefield and you only have to carry a basic load of lets say, 200-300 rounds. Or how about a 12 lb rifle that you only need 50-100 rounds for.......

Careful Squidward, you're entering a ground combat discussion.
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Old 08-14-2017, 13:38   #34
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Did you ever carry an M1 Garand with basic load?? 12lbs, plus.
Or M14 or L1a1 or M60 or .......

In WWII the standard load for the M1 Garand was only 80 rounds, but in Nam my troops carried 420(21qty 20rd mags).

Infantry will carry what ever they need, based on mission and resupply timing.
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How about a $500 rifle that does ok on the battlefield and you only have to carry a basic load of lets say, 200-300 rounds. Or how about a 12 lb rifle that you only need 50-100 rounds for.......

Careful Squidward, you're entering a ground combat discussion.
Sorry, forgot my sarcasm font.

Was trying to cross reference the debate about decreased requirements for women combat troops.
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Old 08-14-2017, 17:39   #35
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To whom.......

I completely agree with the analogy "it's the Indian, not the bow" vis a vis training and practice, but should advancements in body armor, as the general suggests, have an impact on the choice between a carbine or battle rifle?

Do are rivals even issue body armor to their infantry? It seems like top drawer equipment that is very expensive for million man armies to issue.
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Old 08-14-2017, 21:10   #36
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How are they?

(Never used a Scar.)
bit bulky but they run well its gas piston.
I don't like the charging handle on them could have made it none reciprocating like the G-3.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:20   #37
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To whom.......

I completely agree with the analogy "it's the Indian, not the bow" vis a vis training and practice, but should advancements in body armor, as the general suggests, have an impact on the choice between a carbine or battle rifle?

Do are rivals even issue body armor to their infantry? It seems like top drawer equipment that is very expensive for million man armies to issue.

I know Russia does, but I couldn't tell you how widely it's issued right now. I was under the impression for a while that Russia mostly issued soft shrapnel panels, but apparently they started a modernization program a few years ago that puts them on parity with ESAPI. Not sure how successful it's been but apparently that's their new standard issue kit, along with the AK12. They have their own standards that are joint military/police, because Russia. Scroll down a bit, they're in there. My best guess says they're pushing for a 6 or 7 rated standard issue plate. Various Russian SF units are generally equipped with an equivalent plate, AFAIK.

http://dacsarmored.com/normas/DIN52290.pdf


I don't think China does.

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/20...fantry/102654/


As for insurgents/terror groups..... well, that depends entirely on the group, money, location, local legal concerns, planning concerns, and probably a million other things I don't know about or won't think of.

There's probably a lot "black market" armor floating around (not that armor is particularly regulated, usually) but most of it is soft or NIJ 3 equivalent, so I can't see any real bonus.


That said, reading between the fine lines, I'm not sure I'd say complete coincidence that the interest in advanced armor penetrating rounds is coming in as Russia finalizes it's armor modernization program..... but that is just speculation.

IMO, given modern armor systems, I'd say that the primary concern for beating rifle rated armor is bullet construction and materials... not caliber. If it can stop 5.56 it can probably stop .308/7.62x51 as well. If it can't stop 7.62 AP, then 5.56 AP is also likely going to poke holes in it. Likely. There is some room for error there, but I can't think of a 7.62 bullet that will beat a class of armor that doesn't have a 5.56 bullet "cousin" that will beat that same armor. Example being that M80A1 and M855A1 both beat NIJ 3 armors but both fail against NIJ 4 armors, and that the M995 Tungsten/Steel 5.56 AP will beat NIJ 4 armor..... exactly the same as the 7.62 equivalent.

There are a bunch of reasons why someone might want to switch out 6.5mm for 5.56, and basically all of them are for increased terminal performance or range advantages... whether that's a worthwhile trade off is something I'm not sure I'm qualified to discuss. Main point being that as far as I can tell there's not much performance against body armor reasons to switch caliber as long as you're staying between .223 and .30-06.

Maybe this will help clear things up in terms of what the point of this program is (page 38):

http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y..._5_PB_2017.pdf

The program in the OP is (speculatively) because they want rifles that can work with the ammo mentioned in this post in wide usage that don't suck. I speculate, that the main point of going with 7.62 first over 5.56 is that they want it in MGs first. This is mentioned explicitly in the program text above, although I don't understand enough of small arms doctrine (right word?) to understand why they would prioritize having AP for MGs in widespread use over carbines and individually issued weapons......

I hope everything I am typing is tracking logically. It fits together pretty neatly for me, but I don't know if I'm really expressing the point correctly.
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Old 08-15-2017, 07:54   #38
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How about just using the money for rifle training and optics so the soldier can see at 600m. Cut the EO/PC classes out and train the war fighter to do his job.

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Old 08-15-2017, 08:43   #39
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How about just using the money for rifle training and optics so the soldier can see at 600m. Cut the EO/PC classes out and train the war fighter to do his job.
This line of thinking is unacceptable - how can you support teaching people how to be more violent and lethal as preferable to teaching dignity, respect, and tolerance?

...in fact, since you did not specifically denounce sexism, transphobia, and bigotry as problems facing our troops, I am going to hold you in low esteem until I can become outraged about something else.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:05   #40
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This line of thinking is unacceptable - how can you support teaching people how to be more violent and lethal as preferable to teaching dignity, respect, and tolerance?

...in fact, since you did not specifically denounce sexism, transphobia, and bigotry as problems facing our troops, I am going to hold you in low esteem until I can become outraged about something else.
So,,
We're talking what??
20 minutes??
Do I have time to get another cup of coffee??

LMAO
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Old 08-30-2017, 22:12   #41
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bit bulky but they run well its gas piston.
I don't like the charging handle on them could have made it none reciprocating like the G-3.
I agree about the charging handle. I've hit my thumb with it a couple times. Didn't hurt so much, but did cause a malfunction. There is an aftermarket adapter to convert it to non-reciprocating but add that to the already expensive $2500+ and just keep throwing money at it! and you have to be careful what mags you use with them to prevent bolt damage from the bolt catch. It doesn't center on the mag well and with anything older than GEN 3 MAGPUL or just a std mil spec metal mag there may be issues with it holding the bolt catch up a little and causing problems. Easy enough to fix, but weird that they designed them that way.
I love the way my SCAR 16 shoots and ergonomics are very similar to AR15/M16/M4 series rifles. Super clean to shoot, but the action is also very noisy! Much louder than most ARs I've shot and owned. Accuracy is fair, but not great at about 1-1.5MOA with 69gr match ammo, I expected better for that kind of money. And unfortunately EVERYTHING for the SCARs are VERY expensive. swap a barrel for $1000!! When the Army is spending $400/M16A2 it's hard to see them shelling out that kind of money to go with SCARs...

FWIW
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