History Help Needed, McNamara!

**Bill Harsey** · 07-03-2004, 22:03

I graduated high school in 1973. This means I knew very little about what was happening in Vietnam because my only source of information was broadcast television. I just finished reading two great books by Major John Plaster about SOG that gave me a better background about the war, in the opening pages, than 10 years of television. You guys also know I have the world of respect for those who served in that country. This evening I watched a kind of documentary called "Fog of War" featuring Robert McNamara. I can't reconcile what he says compared to Major John Plaster. When in doubt I go with the man on the ground. Can anyone help me with Mr. McNamaras role in Vietnam? Thanks, Bill

**Bill Harsey** · 07-03-2004, 22:37

Any information would be both respected and appreciated, especially from the FOGs who served there. I'll take it off the record if that's easier.

BMT (RIP) · 07-04-2004, 04:33

Bill, Does the EDSEL atomobile ring a bell?? Mac believed everything could be done with numbers.
If you made 10 blades and none passed the test XXXX,if you made 10 blades and all passed the test XXXX.The man was hung up on percentages.

BMT
Jr. FOG

QRQ 30 · 07-04-2004, 07:18

IMO one of the dreaded micro-managers. He cuffed Westmoreland and the JCS. He would not allow them to operate as they knew how. A big factor in screwing up our polocy in RVN.

**Bill Harsey** · 07-04-2004, 07:31

Quote:

Originally posted by BMT
Bill, Does the EDSEL atomobile ring a bell?? Mac believed everything could be done with numbers.
If you made 10 blades and none passed the test XXXX,if you made 10 blades and all passed the test XXXX.The man was hung up on percentages.

BMT
Jr. FOG

In "Fog of War" McNamara was very proud of his use of statistical analysis. That raised serious red flags with me because I see that used badly all the time by industry to make terrible choices.

**Bill Harsey** · 07-04-2004, 07:40

Quote:

Originally posted by QRQ 30
IMO one of the dreaded micro-managers. He cuffed Westmoreland and the JCS. He would not allow them to operate as they knew how. A big factor in screwing up our polocy in RVN.

Very interesting, he dwelled on many details about Vietnam but never once spoke of how much effort and material North Vietnam and China used against South Vietnam. I know some of the original SEALs who worked in the south, they say the same about not being allowed to operate as they knew.

NousDefionsDoc · 07-04-2004, 08:57

Scientist trying to work in an art.

Its called the "Art of War" not the "Science of War" for a reason.

Of course i'm much too young to remember first hand.

**The Reaper** · 07-04-2004, 09:51

Quote:

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Scientist trying to work in an art.

Its called the "Art of War" not the "Science of War" for a reason.

Of course i'm much too young to remember first hand.

I thought you were a Clausewitz fan, not Jomini?

McNamara was a self-serving tool and an arrogant ass, BTW.

TR

CommoGeek · 07-06-2004, 08:00

Bill,

You may know of the F-111 fighter-bomber. McNamara's intent was to build a dual missions a/c for both the Navy and AF. The thought being that if you made 3 zillion copies of airframe x and applied some minor changes for both missions you could pass on the savings to the taxpayers, right?

The things was a boondoggel from the beginning in that AF and Navy needs are vastly different. landing gear, airframe, wiring, and a bunch of stuff I don't know about are all different.

So the F-111 was given to the AF who promptly rushed it into combat to prove it's worth. The terrain following/ avoidance radar sucked and IIRC 6 of 8 a/c in theatre crashed with the loss of the two crewmen on each a/c.

Just one example for you from a historical perspective.

CPTAUSRET · 01-25-2005, 19:30

Bill:

A good book to read re the Vietnam war is "WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE AND YOUNG" Hal Moore Jr LTG Ret, and Joe Galloway.

Macnamara was a pompous ass, who directly affected the outcome of the war.

His middle name is Strange, aptly named he was!

Terry

**Bill Harsey** · 01-25-2005, 19:42

Thanks Terry,
Will do as advised. I just re-read my opening statement/question for this thread and still stand by it.

Just a footnote Terry, I got my first helo ride from a buddy who drove Cobras in Vietnam and then for some outfit who's initials are AA. He flies for a big timber comapny here now. I've spoken to him about checking out PS.com here. Maybe I need to twist his arm HARDER.

This same friend landed (unnamed large timber companies) helicopter in the lower pasture here one day to pick up some work I'd completed for him. Some dirtbag just down the road flushed all his stuff down the toilet because he thought it was a bust. I got that info from the sheriffs dept. a couple weeks later.

**Roguish Lawyer** · 01-25-2005, 19:44

Bill:

You should read The Pentagon Papers.

RL

CPTAUSRET · 01-25-2005, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Thanks Terry,
Will do as advised. I just re-read my opening statement/question for this thread and still stand by it.

Just a footnote Terry, I got my first helo ride from a buddy who drove Cobras in Vietnam and then for some outfit who's initials are AA. He flies for a big timber comapny here now. I've spoken to him about checking out PS.com here. Maybe I need to twist his arm HARDER.

This same friend landed (unnamed large timber companies) helicopter in the lower pasture here on day to pick up some work I'd completed for him. Some dirtbag just down the road flushed all his stuff down the toilet because he thought it was a bust. I got that info from the sheriffs dept. a couple weeks later.

Bill:

Understand the AA!

That's funny as hell re the dirtbag down the road.

HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE, and STREET WITHOUT JOY, are two other books I would recommend re Vietnam, both were written by Bernard Fall, and relate a very good story of why the Phrench were driven out of Vietnam.

Terry

CPTAUSRET · 01-25-2005, 20:05

Speaking of McNamara, does anyone remember Mcnamara's 100,000??

He proposed dropping the minimum standards (IQ wise), way down for approx 100,000 troops, which were to be assimililated into regular Army units. A piece of social engineering which was an abysmal failure!

Terry

NousDefionsDoc · 01-25-2005, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET

Speaking of McNamara, does anyone remember Mcnamara's 100,000??

He proposed dropping the minimum standards (IQ wise), way down for approx 100,000 troops, which were to be assimililated into regular Army units. A piece of social engineering which was an abysmal failure!

Terry

I do. I had a Platoon Sergeant that was one of them. He was an E7 and couldn't read or write. I did his resume for him to work in the Forestry Service when he retired. Good guy though.