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Old 06-01-2006, 07:25   #16
QRQ 30
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The earmark of Special Forces is adaptability. The operations in my day changed from primarily GW/Counter GW to stratigic recon to direct action combat.

As long as there are special missions to be pulled, there will be special men to accomplish them -- USASF!
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:05   #17
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Toby-
In the early/mid 80's SOT-D used to pull 'casual' labor from the prephase / recycle groups at the Q - did it, lots of work, lots of fun, construction laborers and training aides - but we were also required to appropriate items from non SF/SOF areas for use in building some areas - a test of ingenuity? a gut check? who knows, but it exposed me to some of the absolute best soldiers I have ever seen, the best of SF the absolute cream of the crop.

Rather not talk about El Sal - wasn't there, but my ruck buddy from the Q was, first US advisor to give his all in that area, RIP Jimmy, you pushed me hard.

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Old 06-20-2006, 12:12   #18
incommin
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SF has changed. One could say that in the 60's it was a teenager and today it is an adult.

I remember hitch hiking back to Devens from the White Mountains of New Hampshire because our promised transport didn't show. I also remember hauling M-3 machine guns, AK's and M-16's in the trunk of my POV (thru the state of NY) on an exercise bacause of transportation issues.

I also recall whisky and rum in resupply drops. Whisky and C-rats.....

The point is that things have changed. Not better or worse. Just different.

SF wasn't like or understood by Regular Army commanders. SF teams made their units look bad. SF teams "borrowed" stuff. They wore a foreign cap. They didn't seem to fit into the big battle in the Fulda Gap that everyone was expecting.

Things have changed for the better now. Thank God that there will always be a well trained soldier standing in the door to do the work the regular Army can't do.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:58   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incommin
SF has changed. One could say that in the 60's it was a teenager and today it is an adult.............



Things have changed for the better now. Thank God that there will always be a well trained soldier standing in the door to do the work the regular Army can't do.
Changed, yes. That is the earmark of SF "Adaptability".

The SF of the 60's was just a mature at SF today. Missions were different. The majority of the E-7 and above in my team were veterans of Korea and even WWII including vwterans of Merrill's Maurauders and othe classified units. IMHO It would be more accurate to say that a new generation has now reached maturity, and is staking over from the previous.
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Old 06-20-2006, 19:19   #20
Gene Econ
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Interesting Comments

Guys:

Interesting discussion. I can see just about when guys ETSd or Retired in terms of where the comments lead or end.

I doubt the Army ever considered eliminating SF. Certainly, some hated SF and some in power over the years from the 50's through the 70's would have liked to see SF eliminated. However, history indicates that this wasn't the case as SF never ceased. So I take with a grain of salt those who say how such and such CSA tried to eliminate SF but failed. Take my word for it, if a CSA wanted SF eliminated, it would have been eliminated.

The chances of SF being eliminated in the near future is very slim due to performance, USASOC with all the subordinate commands, and the existence of SF as a branch of the Army. Highly unlikely.

One guy commented that Desert 1 was the closest SF came to being eliminated. That is a first for me. As I can recall, Desert 1 was a Delta and Ranger operation. Also, Desert 1, combined with problems within the SO arena in Grenada and Panama seemed to generate a whole bunch of support for a badly needed overhaul of the C2 system, training, equipment, and ten thousand other things that had been neglected over the years. I also think that some in SF were so adverse to the idea of operating with conventional forces that some pretty important doctrinal and equipment issues were ignored. Perhaps Somalia was the final straw although that too was a Delta and Ranger operation. In very short order, a system was put in place that assisted in C2 between SO and the conventional side. Since then, both have come closer together.

One thing that hasn't changed is the basic SF doctrine. One thing that has changed is that the dividing line between the missions in SF doctrine is not so black and white anymore. The conventional side is experiencing the same thing and this will IMHO lead to a doctrine that will focus on initiative and mental agility more so than any cut and dry way to conduct a war.

I appreciate the analogy about high school verses grown up. I would put it as High School vs Graduate School. The SF guys are better trained, better equipped, in better condition, and I believe are extremely intelligent. I also believe that the SF schools are far more focused than before.

As for the future? I think that thngs will change as they must due to a changing way we fight. I can see the conventional combat arms side becoming ten times more agile and intuitive about how they fight and or succeed in missions. That is where they are heading by equipment, doctrine, and training.

I think that SF will see a stronger relationship with the conventional side although I do not see SF as being forced to change their personality or doctrine in the process.

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Old 06-21-2006, 05:15   #21
incommin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QRQ 30
Changed, yes. That is the earmark of SF "Adaptability".

The SF of the 60's was just a mature at SF today. Missions were different. The majority of the E-7 and above in my team were veterans of Korea and even WWII including vwterans of Merrill's Maurauders and othe classified units. IMHO It would be more accurate to say that a new generation has now reached maturity, and is staking over from the previous.

When I stated that SF was like a teenager in the 60s; it was not a knock against the personnel. I too had combat vets from WWII and Korea on my first teams. And they were the intelligentsia of the Army. I am well aware that the missions were different and the equipment was different.

My comment of SF now being an adult is form the fact that SF and special ops is sharing equal status or even a higher status among regular Army units, recognized as the force multiplier that it is, and no longer looked down upon by the rest of the Army's command staff. No everyone is wearing foreign French caps!
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Old 07-26-2006, 20:01   #22
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Initially the new SF branch was both a curse and a blessing.

SF finally got funding but the door opened for a lot of ticket punchers whos only loyalty was to their careers.

“And they copied and copied and copied. But they couldn’t copy my mind. So I left them sweating and stealing a year and a half behind.”
-Rudyard Kipling
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Old 07-27-2006, 04:54   #23
Jack Moroney (RIP)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty
Initially the new SF branch was both a curse and a blessing.

SF finally got funding but the door opened for a lot of ticket punchers whos only loyalty was to their careers.

That is really a sad fact and it happened with all grades. Unfortunately it was more prevalent in the senior officer grades, especially with the grandfathering of those that were not qualified or even understood our business some of whom were exceptional troops in their own right but not in ours. The branch has suffered for it and still does today not only from those that have hung on that should be elsewhere but for the perception of those that are not SF have formed about SF's capabilities, limitations, and use. For them perception is still reality and many are in position to strongly influence SF's current and future roles.
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