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Old 06-08-2004, 10:10   #1
brownapple
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Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
GH:

What did Lincoln do that you object to?
You mean besides suspend Habeus Corpeus (how ever it is spelled?). Or allow troops to fire into rioters in NYC?

Or a variety of other acts that I feel were directly in violation of the Bill of Rights?
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Old 06-08-2004, 10:18   #2
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Originally posted by Greenhat
Or allow troops to fire into rioters in NYC?
You talking rioters or protesters?

I’ve seen situations where I would have also fired on rioters.

The throwing of a Molotov cocktail at me would find a person with a gaping hole in the rear of their brain housing.

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Old 06-08-2004, 18:08   #3
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Originally posted by Team Sergeant
You talking rioters or protesters?

I’ve seen situations where I would have also fired on rioters.

The throwing of a Molotov cocktail at me would find a person with a gaping hole in the rear of their brain housing.

TS
NYC anti-draft riots are how they are historically described. Read about them and make your own decision.
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Old 06-08-2004, 21:46   #4
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Originally posted by Greenhat
NYC anti-draft riots are how they are historically described. Read about them and make your own decision.
In March 1863 Congress passed an unpopular conscription act. Many state governors opposed the act as infringing on state's rights. The worst feature was the Commutation Fee, which effectively allowed the wealthy to buy their way out of the draft. Many poor whites, especially recent German and Irish immigrants, were also angry because blacks were not eligible for the draft.

In mid-July 1863, NYC prepared for its first draft lottery. The bulk of able-bodied troops were still in some dirty little Pennsylvania town - Gettysburg, I think they call it. Security for the city and the draft offices was provided by the NYPD and the so-called Invalid Corps of invalided soldiers from this and earlier wars.

Monday, July 13

The police were ill-prepared for the outbreak of violence. The Invalid Corps was even worse-prepared. Advancing from Central Park on the first large group of rioters, the force under Lt. Reed fired blanks to disperse the crowd. The crowd dispersed into the Invalid Corps, attacking them and seizing their weapons. At least one soldier was killed on the spot. Another was chased and beaten to death at the corner of 3rd Ave and 42nd St.

A force of about 44 police officers formed at 3rd and 43rd and advanced on the mob. They chased the mob toward 46th, where they thought another force of police was waiting as anvil to their hammer. Instead of more police, they found another mob coming up from 45th. The police were attacked with clubs, knives, tools, stones and guns. All but 6 were injured.

By this point, rioters clogged 3rd Ave for about 30 blocks. News of the riots spread throughout the city by word of mouth, and faster than the police could coordinate a response, as the rioters were knocking down telegraph poles. The rioters began moving toward the Armory on 2nd and 21st, where 35 police were ordered to "hold the Armory at all costs". They refused to fire on the crowd until people actually broke into the building, when one person was shot in the head. Learning there would be no reinforcement, the officers were forced to retreat, sneaking out the back of the building and shedding their uniforms to mingle into the crowds. The mob looted the Armory and advanced on the Mayor's residence. They then moved toward Mulberry Street police headquarters. By the late afternoon of rioting and looting, they were armed and drunk.

At police headquarters, 200 officers under Sgt. Daniel Carpenter formed a line at Bleecker Street. They were facing what they estimated was a mob of 5,000. Carpenter led his force toward Broadway, where they met the advancing crowd. He sent two 50-man companies down side streets to flank the mob. Once in position, they attacked, throwing the mob into disarray. Broadway was littered with dead and wounded.

But while the main body downtown was dispersed, reports were coming in of more mobs all over the city. Having had their fill of looted liquor and armed police, the mob began looking for blacks.

A mob surrounded the Colored Orphan Asylum on 5th Ave, between 43rd and 44th Sts. Superintendent William Davis gathered the children and snuck them out a back door just as the mob broke through the front. The mob looted the building, and set it on fire. They attacked the firemen who tried to put out the fire.

Meanwhile, as it got later, people from the mob dispersed on Broadway earlier grouped with a mob outside City Hall, and advanced on the Tribune Building. 150 officers confronted the mob in and around the Tribune Building. Carpenter's force of 200 advanced into City Hall Park and the combined force swept the park clear.

As the day drew to a close, MG John Wool, Commanding the Department of the East, began assembling forces. At 9:15 p.m., he had received the following orders from Gen. Halleck in Washington: "It is reported that a mob has destroyed the provost-marshal's office in Third avenue. It is expected that you will protect the provost-marshal in the execution of his duties. If necessary, call upon the mayor and Governor for aid, and use the forces under your command. You must see that the laws are executed." MG Wool had at his disposal mainly what was left of various NYS National Guard units not deployed in Pennsylvania, as well as naval militias under Rear Adm. Paulding at the Brooklyn Navy Yard and the small garrisons on Governor's Island and at several forts. The Mayor appealed for additional forces from neighboring states and from West Point.

There was a command problem between Federal and State troops. Brevet BG Harvey Brown, commander of US troops in most of the forts around the city, resisted being placed under the command of MG C. W. Sandford, commanding 1st Division, NYS National Guard. Gen. Brown was relieved, and Col. Robert Nugent took charge of the regulars.

A storm came in that night, dispersing the crowds indoors. Some 15-20 police officers were dead, and an unknown number of rioters.

Tuesday, July 14

Around 8 a.m., Gen. Brown begged for his job back, agreeing to work for the National Guard general, and Gen. Wool returned him to command of the regulars (he would eventually be relieved again on the 17th). Expecting the worst, Gen. Wool ordered his commands "immediately to attack and stop those who have commenced their infernal rascality in Yorkville and Harlem."

That morning, several hundred police and special police assembled at Mulberry Street, joined by about 700 regulars, militiamen and marines. Reports poured in of mobs assembling to the north, from the Hudson to the East River. A 250-man police force under Sgt. Carpenter moved up 2nd and 3rd Avenues, meeting the mob without major incident at 32th. As they moved further north, the hail of debris from rooftops increased, and the police began to disperse. Carpenter rallied them, and the police stormed the houses and clear the rooftops. After an hour-long fight, the police were victorious.

A block and a half to the north, Col. O'Brien of the 11th New York formed his troops in a line securing the avenues of approach, with two howitzers in the middle of Third Avenue. The scattered remnants of the mob, seeing the bodies scattered on the street and the soldiers blocking their way, rallied and began throwing stones and bricks at the soldiers. O'Brien ordered his men to fire. Bodies fell everywhere from rifle and artillery fire. The mob fled in terror, trampling each other. It took five minutes to empty the avenue.

Col. O'Brien and his force returned downtown, where he requested to be relieved. Of poor Irish stock himself, he was traumatized by what he had just done. He returned home to Brooklyn, where a mob beat him to death and desecrated his body.

Meanwhile that day, a company of 150 soldiers under a Lt. Wood, moving in the Bowery district, encountered a mob of 2,000 at Pitt Street. The mob started throwing stones at the soldiers. Wood ordered his men to open fire. The mob dispersed, leaving more dead and wounded.

Two separate fights took place that day at a wire factory on 30th, where a stockpile of weapons was located. More of the mob managed to arm themselves. The police retook the building in a room-by-room fight, and took what was left of the weapons back to police headquarters. The mob pursued, throwing bricks and stones as they chased, and an army rearguard eventually turned and let loose a volley at point-blank, dispersing the mob.

At police headquarters, reports had been pouring in from all over the city of rioters, numbering in the hundreds and thousands.

Downtown, business leaders ordered businesses closed until order was restored. The Harbor Police ferried in troops from Riker's and Governor's Islands. The 10th National Zouaves, the Invalid Corps and locals guarded government buildings. Some 400 additional special police were sworn in. The fire department continued to fight fires.

Blacks fled the city. Many, especially the old and the very young, did not escape the mobs and were beaten to death. Black neighborhoods went up in flames. James Costello, a black shoemaker, shot back at a mob chasing him, killing one. The rest captured and lynched him outside his home at 97 West 33rd Street. They then attacked his wife and children, who managed to escape. Costello was not the first, and would be far from the last, to be lynched. While the main riots were still in New York proper below Central Park, anti-black riots sprang up everywhere.

Armed rioters attacked Horace Greeley's house and nearby residences and buildings. Police detachments attacked them, killing many, as police sharpshooters targeted those with rifles (and many who were just easier targets). Fights raged, and Greeley's house and others were looted. Soldiers arrived and fired a volley into the intermingled crowd, wounding, among others, 3 police officers.

As darkness approached, looters attacked the Brooks Brothers store and the Tribune building. The nearby offices of the New York Times escaped unharmed.

Archbishop Hughes pleaded with the city's Irish to go home, to little avail. At the same time, he expressed support for the rioters and denounced the war.

Meanwhile, the mob in places on the West Side began getting organized, stringing up barricades on major avenues. A series of engagements began as police and soldiers drove the mobs back from successive barricades. As the last barricade was taken, the mob fled. Smaller fights and acts of looting and burning continued into the night. A mob attempted unsuccessfully to burn the Harlem Bridge. By midnight, most of the city was quiet.

Wednesday, July 15

More to come, if anyone's interested.

Maybe I will split the thread to let this get back to Reagan's legacy.
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Old 06-08-2004, 21:53   #5
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I split the thread to allow this discussion to take a different track from the Reagan, as the more general topic, Lincoln's actions on the civil liberties front, and this more specific topic, the circumstances of the New York Draft Riots, merit their own discussion.

Feel free to add. GH and TS, if you want to change anything in your posts to make the topic clearer, go ahead.

Dave
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Old 06-08-2004, 22:16   #6
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Quote:
More to come, if anyone's interested.
I don't speak for the rest, but please do AL. Excellent history lesson that I caught a glimpse of through a movie (Gangs of NY.) Not proud of it, but without that movie I would not know what you're talking about.

Great stuff.
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:55   #7
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You mean besides suspend Habeus Corpeus (how ever it is spelled?). Or allow troops to fire into rioters in NYC?

Or a variety of other acts that I feel were directly in violation of the Bill of Rights?
Greenhat,

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the current state of habeas corpus?

And let me preface this by acknowledging that the use of suspended habeas corpus in 1861 and 1862 goes far beyond what we are seeing with regards to the legal treatment of suspected terrorists. My understanding is that over 13,000 people were arrested under martial law during this time period. Interestingly, though, the arrests were primarily of any suspected disloyal citizens in the Union. Whether armed rebels or just loud protesters, as many probably were, the parallel to today's situation certainly exists.

President Lincoln has the great fortune of being credited with preventing the early collapse of the United States, and so history judges this decision well. While we are all (hopefully) grateful for the outcome of the Civil War, I must agree with you that this was a terrible precedent to set for the case of American liberty.

I know that the topic of recent habeas corpus rulings is currently being covered ferociously with respect to the Joseph Padilla case in another thread, but I was hoping you'd share your thoughts on the subject since the question immediately sprang to mind when I read your post.
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Old 06-09-2004, 04:07   #8
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AL, I would be very much interested in 'knowing more'.

As always, thank you.

Solid
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Old 06-09-2004, 04:37   #9
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Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
More to come, if anyone's interested.
Definately.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:29   #10
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Great history lesson, Dave.

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Old 06-09-2004, 07:42   #11
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Good thread.
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Old 06-09-2004, 08:17   #12
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So far, I'm not seeing any reason to change my view that Lincoln is the greatest US President to date.
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Old 06-09-2004, 11:50   #13
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Wednesday, July 15

Day 3 began with efforts to find a political solution. New York City Democrats began working on a plan to fund Commutation Fees for poor draftees who wanted to buy their way out. New York's Democratic Governor issued the following proclamation, drafted the night before:
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"To the People of the City of New York: A riotous demonstration in your city, originating in opposition to the conscription of soldiers for the military service of the United States, has swelled into vast proportions, directing its fury against the lives and property of peaceful citizens. I know that many of those who have participated in these proceedings would not have allowed themselves to be carried to such extremes of violence and of wrong except under an apprehension of injustice; but such persons are reminded that the only opposition to the conscription which can be allowed is an appeal to the courts. The right of every citizen to make such an appeal will be maintained, and the decision of the courts must be respected and obeyed by rulers and people alike. No other course is consistent with the maintenance of the laws, the peace and order of the city, and the safety of its inhabitants. Riotous proceedings must and shall be put down. The laws of the State of New York must be enforced, its peace and order maintained, and the lives and property of all its citizens protected at every hazard.

"The rights of every citizen will be properly guarded and defended by the Chief Magistrate of the State.

"I do therefore call upon all persons engaged in these riotous proceedings to retire to their homes and employments, declaring to them that unless they do so at once I shall use all the power necessary to restore the peace and order of the city.

"I also call upon all well-disposed persons, not enrolled for the preservation of order, to pursue their ordinary avocations. Let all citizens stand firmly by the constituted authorities, sustaining law and order in the city, and ready to answer any such demand as circumstances may render necessary for me to make upon their services; and they may rely upon a rigid enforcement of the laws of the State against all who violate them

"Horatio Seymour, Governor.
A notice ("Notice for the Purpose of Perfecting A Citizens' Organization") was issued calling on citizen volunteers to assemble at various places to be placed under army and National Guard command. The citizen volunteers were to be placed as security in quieter areas to free up police and soldiers to deal with the rioters.

The military presence had grown. Gunboats patrolled the East and Hudson Rivers, and that morning, six more arrived, with 90 guns. At the Brooklyn Navy Yard, Lt. Comdr. R. W. Meade organized a Naval Brigade. Within the brigade, Captain J. C. Grayson, USMC, took command of a force of 180 Marines in a battalion of two companies, which then deployed to City Hall.

A battery of the 3rd Battalion German Heavy Artillery under Lt. Col. Louis Schirmer, who had been assigned in May to raise an artillery regiment among the Germans of New York City, was deployed to City Hall. Schirmer, who would later command the 15th New York Heavy Artillery in the Petersburg campaign, was soon sent north.

A disabled black coachman, Abraham Franklin, had gone to see to his elderly mother. The mob dragged him ut of her house and at the corner of 7th Ave and 27th Street, he was beaten and lynched. Schirmer arrived with artillery and a militia company of the 11th New York Volunteer Infantry ("Ellsworth's Zouaves"), who dispersed the mob. Police cut Franklin down, finding him still alive. The force was soon called away to another riot scene, and the mob returned, hanging him again and then mutilating his corpse. A 16 year old Irash butcher, Patrick Butler, reportedly dragged Franklin's corpse through the streets by his genitals.

Other lynchings and murders took place around the city. On July 13, Peter Heuston, a 63 year old Mohawk veteran of the Mexican War, had been mistaken for black and beaten. He died several days later. William Henry Nichols was attacked on July 15. In the "Report of the Merchants' Committee for the Relief of Colored People Suffering from the Late Riots in The City of New York," his mother described it thusly:
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I had arrived from Philadelphia, the previous Monday evening, before any indications of the riot were known, and was temporarily stopping, on Wednesday, July 15th, at the house of my son, No. 147 East 28th street.

At 3 o'clock of that day the mob arrived and immediately commenced an attack with terrific yells, and a shower of stones and bricks, upon the house. In the next room to where I was sitting was a poor woman, who had been confined with a child on Sunday, three days previous. Some of the rioters broke through the front door with pick axes, and came rushing into the room where this poor woman lay, and commenced to pull the clothes from off her.

Knowing that their rage was chiefly directed against men, I hid my son behind me and ran with him through the back door, down into the basement. In a little while I saw the innocent babe, of three days old, come crashing down into the yard; some of the rioters had dashed it out of the back window, killing it instantly. In a few minutes streams of water came pouring down into the basement, the mob had cut the Croton water-pipes with their axes. Fearing we should be drowned in the cellar, (there were ten of us, mostly women and children, there) I took my boy and flew past the dead body of the babe, out to the rear of the yard, hoping to escape with him through an open lot into 29th street; but here, to our horror and dismay, we met the mob again; I, with my son, had climbed the fence, but the sight of those maddened demons so affected me that I fell back, fainting, into the yard; my son jumped down from the fence to pick me up, and a dozen of the rioters came leaping over the fence after him.

As they surrounded us my son exclaimed, "save my mother, gentlemen, if you kill me." "Well, we will kill you," they answered; and with that two ruffians seized him, each taking hold of an arm, while a third, armed with a crow-bar, calling upon them to stand and hold his arms apart, deliberately struck him a heavy blow over the head, felling him, like a bullock, to the ground. (He died in the N. Y. hospital two days after). I believe if I were to live a hundred years I would never forget that scene, or cease to hear the horrid voices of that demoniacal mob resounding in my ears.

They then drove me over the fence, and as I was passing over, one of the mob seized a pocket-book, which he saw in my bosom, and in his eagerness to get it tore the dress off my shoulders.

I, with several others, then ran to the 29th street Station House, but we were here refused admittance, and told by the Captain that we were frightened without cause. A gentleman who accompanied us told the Captain of the facts, but we were all turned away.

I then went down to my husband's, in Broome Street, and there I encountered another mob, who, before I could escape commenced stoning me. They beat me severely.

I reached the house but found my husband had left for Rahway. Scarcely knowing what I did, I then wandered, bewildered and sick, in the direction he had taken, and towards Philadelphia, and reached Jersey City, where a kind, Christian gentleman, Mr. Arthur Lynch, found me, and took me to his house, where his good wife nursed me for over two weeks, while I was very sick.

I am a member of the Baptist Church, and if it were not for my trust in Christ I do not know how I could have endured it.
Much of the rioting that day was focused on black homes and individuals. One case the Report noted was that of a Mrs. Simmons, driven from her home at 147 East 28th and losing everything she owned. While the riots were going on in New York, her son was outside Charleston. He was taken prisoner by the Confederates during the assault of the 54th Massachusetts on Battery Wagner on Morris Island on July 18.

...
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Old 06-09-2004, 12:10   #14
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So far, I'm not seeing any reason to change my view that Lincoln is the greatest US President to date.
Says something for your opinion of individual liberties. A thought expressed by Robert A. Heinlein I believe, and which I strongly believe:

"A nation that cannot defend itself without cohersion is a nation not worth defending"

Ferratus,

Regarding habeas corpus...

First, I have no issue with the treatment of detainees on Gitmo. Terrorists have no rights, they give them up when they take part in terrorism (as do spies and sabatuers). Their choice. In addition, since Gitmo is not American soil, rights granted by the US Constitution and US Courts should not apply.

When it comes to citizens of the United States, and the residents of the same, habeas corpus is an essential part of the protections that the individual has against tyrrany.

To quote:
The writ is "the fundamental instrument for safeguarding individual freedom against arbitrary and lawless state action." Harris v. Nelson, 394 U.S. 286, 290-91 (1969).

Lincoln was quite willing to forget that, invoking arbitrary and lawless state action against the people of the Union as well as lawful action against the people of the Confederacy. His actions fall in the same category as do those of FDR and the relocation camps, except that Lincoln was more cold-hearted about it (cold-hearted is sometimes necessary).

I do not believe that today's actions come anywhere close to those of the Lincoln administration, but the potential is there. Considering the unwillingness of the Administration to throttle the press (as Lincoln, Wilson and FDR all did), I doubt very much that there will ever be a serious problem. Too many eyes, too much noise.
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Old 06-09-2004, 13:11   #15
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More military developments on Wednesday night/Thursday morning:

Black refugees were pouring into places like the arsenals and armories, where Army and police units were trying to assemble to coordinate their actions. Some were turned away. Others were let in or provided escort to safer areas, but this only complicated the coordination of a response. So on Wednesday, the miltary and police were mainly reacting to events while they gathered forces. Gen. Sandford showed little inclination to use his guardsmen as anything other than facilities protection, and expected the police to deal with the rioters.

A report came in that afternoon that a store on Broadway near 33rd had a cache of muskets. A force of soldiers of the 9th Regiment New York Volunteer Infantry ("Hawkin's Zouaves"), veterans of Antietam and Fredericksburg who had been mustered out in May 1863, were formed under the command of a Col. Meyer and send to retrieve the weapons. When they arrived, they found a mob gathering. The soldiers moved in and seized the muskets. Col. Meyer commandeered a cart, loading the muskets on it and withdrawing before the mob grew larger.

As evening approached, a mob gathered on 1st Ave, between 18th and 19th. A force under Cols. Winston and Edward Jardine was sent in. Col. Jardine had commanded the 89th New York at Antietam. The force deployed its howitzers on 19th Street and the infantry formed lines, with citizen volunteers as reinforcement. The threat from the howitzers quickly cleared the streets, but they began taking fire from rooftops. The howitzers fired, clearing the streets of anyone left, but the hail from the rooftops continued. As Col. Jardine was preparing to assault the buildings, he was wounded. Two other officers of Duryee's Zoauves (5th NYVI) were killed. Col. Winston ordered a withdrawal.

Gen. Brown organized a two-company force of 150 regulars under Capt. Henry F. Putnam, commander of Company F, 12th U.S. Infantry, and Capt. Shelby (unknown which unit), along with two field pieces. They went back to 19th Street, dispersed the mob, and recovered the soldiers' bodies. It was estimated that 15 soldiers and 25 rioters were killed in these engagements.

The Sixty-fifth Regiment New York National Guard began arriving around 5 p.m. A battery of four howitzers of the Eighth New York National Guard had been attached. As the regiment debarked at the New York docks, a gathering mob threatened two black cooks with the artillery battery. The regiment was headquartered at Centre Market and deployed companies to various government buildings.

As Wednesday turned into Thursday, the Seventh Regiment New York National Guard also arrived from Maryland, having left all personal gear behind. The commander reported that the men had not slept in a tent or changed their underwear in 11 days. Crossing from Amboy, NJ, the regiment landed in the darkness of Thursday morning at Canal Street, and began marching up Broadway to MG Wool's headquarters, and then to the regimental armory.
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