Basic Gone Soft

[TFM]

Army Times has an article with the same title, but their interpretation of results from this new approach to training is the opposite of what is written here.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?...rticle&id=2071

[Pete]

I have mixed feelings about it.

My view is that Basic should be hard. Real hard, more like the USMC boot camp. It should shock all the "Civilian" out of the boys and girls.

You never know the measure of a person until you see them stressed out to the max. Hate to have a bad event in the middle of nowhere at O'dark thirty with somebody who has to perform and do it "NOW".

[TFM]

Towards the end of my cycle I started hearing about these experimental companies going "soft". I was a bit shocked as it was straight hell where I was at. I thought it was the standard only to find out we were being extinct. Some of what I went through was nightmarish, but I would not change it.

[tyrsnbdr]

This softer Basic Training is just pushing the problem children onto the war fighting units. My Company, on average, is chaptering 30% on first term soldiers for problems that should have been taken care of at IET.

This is time taken away from all the Jr Officers, and Senior NCOs that should be using their time to train the unit for combat.

[CDRODA396]

This article is much better than the Army Times' version. Unfortunately, this softening has been a trend for a long time and is a sad reflection of our kinder, softer, sweeter, gentler, I'm OK, You're OK, Politically Correct society.

It really boils down to if we weed out less in BCT/AIT, we save huge money, billions according to one article, but wind up handing the problem of dealing with those who arent cut out for the army to the platoon leaders/company commanders who must now build mammoth chapter packets to boot them out, detracting from where their focus should be, keeping their soldiers and themselves alive while killing insurgents, or worse, keeping the substandard troops in positions that wont get anyone killed and passing them on to the next unit without kicking them out until they find themselves promoted and in charge of good soldiers...its a no win situation.

[moobob]

Originally Posted by CDRODA396

This article is much better than the Army Times' version. Unfortunately, this softening has been a trend for a long time and is a sad reflection of our kinder, softer, sweeter, gentler, I'm OK, You're OK, Politically Correct society.

It really boils down to if we weed out less in BCT/AIT, we save huge money, billions according to one article, but wind up handing the problem of dealing with those who arent cut out for the army to the platoon leaders/company commanders who must now build mammoth chapter packets to boot them out, detracting from where their focus should be, keeping their soldiers and themselves alive while killing insurgents, or worse, keeping the substandard troops in positions that wont get anyone killed and passing them on to the next unit without kicking them out until they find themselves promoted and in charge of good soldiers...its a no win situation.

I'm going through AIT with some soldiers that leave me wondering if they even went through BCT, or if they just took it by correspondence. The big joke between myself and my buddies is to just write up the chapter packets and drop them in our Drill Sergeant's inbox.

As a linguist, I've been in IET since November 03. I have visually seen the quality of the average recruit drop. It wasn't as evident in language school, but now that I'm back with kids recently out of basic... it's a real eye opener.

[huntcg]

Has TRADOC already forgotten the 507th Maintenance Company's stellar performance in combat? Having witnessed the product of lightened, less stress basic training in Camp Virginia and in Southern Iraq circa spring '03, I would say that this watering down of BCT even further is only get more good people KILLED. How many more troops have to die before someone GETS IT?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by huntcg

Has TRADOC already forgotten the 507th Maintenance Company's stellar performance in combat? Having witnessed the product of lightened, less stress basic training in Camp Virginia and in Southern Iraq circa spring '03, I would say that this watering down of BCT even further is only get more good people KILLED. How many more troops have to die before someone GETS IT?

Ahh, but you see, the 507th was not a TRADOC unit. They were a CENTCOM unit, out of FORSCOM.

The failure of soldiers on the battlefield is not a TRADOC failure, since TRADOC has no units engaged in combat.

Not TRADOC's problems, once they are passed on the TO&E units.

This will not be fixed till the warfighters demand something be done, and TRADOC gets the quality input, time, and resources needed to realistically train combat soldiers.

TR

[huntcg]

Excellent point TR,

If the TO&E unit's NCO's and Officers do not maintain a high standard of training at their respective units, it does not matter what kind of troops TRADOC hands them.

[SRT31B]

You've all seen it at one point or another: recruiter goes to local high school, meets everybody that took the ASVAB. Wants to get the high scoring kids, but they're not really interested so hes left with that guy who sat in the corner in your English class that everyone made fun of cause he couldn't read all that well and kind of had a speach impediment. Not exactly Soldier of the year, but the recruiter thinks, "hey, I'll put him in and make my quota and when he gets to basic he'll wash out. First sergeant will leave me alone and I can go home early the rest of the week..."

Fast forward to basic: the drill sergeant knows this guy can't do a single correct pushup. He had to be drug up warrior tower by the 1SG, SDS, and another DS, and then still was too scared to go over the side. SOMEHOW, the day before he would have been recycled he mysteriously passes his PT test... hmmm. 1SG says, "oh well, we'll push 'em through to make our percentage and his unit will sort him out."

And today: you've got a fat body running around on a permanent profile milking the army for everything they can. Shamming out of every possible assignment, and complaining about what little work they do have to do. When it comes time to train, they either have an appointment, are hurt, OR BOTH, or pull out their profile that says, "I'm a little girl and I can't hold my rifle up to my shoulder... boo hoo."

So, the rest of us are left to carry their share of the load (which normally isn't too much unless your a staff sergeant pretending to be a squad leader... ha) Of course then we turn on the t.v. and hear, "You go to war with the army you have..." So the question then is, why do we still have them?! If they can't even carry they're freakin weapon, or run, or jump out of a truck should the situation call for it, why are they still here?! At least send them to work in PAC or something....

Just my opinion...

[TFM]

Sad but true. The Army may be eliminating the only way to "render the fat".

[hermitcrab]

This is something that has concerned me ever since I received my orders to Ft. Jackson for BCT. I had been assuming that I would be heading to Benning so I was less concerned. My recruiter basicly told me to volunteer for everything and if someone else gets smoked to drop down with them.

[Daver]

My daughter joined last November and completed BCT at Ft. Leonard Wood in January. She said it was like summer camp and that they didn't do enough PT which surprised me. It was easy for her and she even said many times "I thought it would be tougher". Maybe coming from her upbringing and her old mans background it was easy for her but many of her classmates washed out and couldn't hack it. Now she is finishing her medic course and then onto the nursing program and she says it's still not hard but they make them clean the barracks alot...that's the hardest thing they do and she laughs at that!
The sad reality is that these kids (mine being one of them) will be in combat sooner rather than later and it will be absolutley imperative those officers and NCO's in charge don't screw up and waste lives due to incompetence.

Daver out

[TFM]

Originally Posted by hermitcrab

This is something that has concerned me ever since I received my orders to Ft. Jackson for BCT. I had been assuming that I would be heading to Benning so I was less concerned. My recruiter basicly told me to volunteer for everything and if someone else gets smoked to drop down with them.

Relaxin Jackson. Hey even at Benning I've seen it. I remember being on like week 10 or something, and some new guys came from 30th AG (reception). It was like a picnic. We were watching and listening as they got their first impression of the Drills, and OSUT. It was so weak I almost wanted to cry. They were doing like four pushups, get up, get a pat on the bottom lecture, then four more. Benning ain't the same anymore. I don't think the Army finds 25% fallout rate acceptable. I think it should be factored in. If the Drills aren't as tough as they need to be, too many men/boys that aren't ready get through. At the unit it is a nightmare. We don't have time to square some of these soldiers away. Some will be going downrange with little more than they got at basic, which was mediocre at best. Some cycles have even been shortened as if they don't speed through the training fast enough. I know I would have liked to get more training in many areas, but it was left to my unit. God help us all.

[SRT31B]

I wish I could say that was the end of it, but this "give them a hug and tell them it's ok" mentality continues on into the real army too. I thought after I got to my unit things would get better.... haha, jokes on me!