Lessons from the SOG experiences

dennisw · 08-14-2014, 09:10

I recently reread John Plaster's book about the SOG experience. I do not believe I read it all the first time, much to my chagrin. Amazing story about amazing people conducting unbelievable missions. There are several issues which have been careening around the interior of my head; one of which I wanted to discuss.

In the latter part of the book the author turns to the discussion of compromised missions and the existence of a mole or moles who provided the enemy with critical mission information. This information ultimately hinders the missions and is directly related to the death and capture of many of the of the members of the recon teams.

As the author points out, the suspicion of the mole's existence was so great among the SOG recon teams, they would not provide the accreted coordinates of their infill locations to the ARVN.

Currently, we have similar conditions in Afghanistan. During my son's recent deployment they conducted a mission where the Taliban had been given the exact information about the mission. Needless to say, they walked into a L shaped ambush where the enemy was dug in, camouflaged and lying in wait.

At what point does leadership stop providing allies with critical mission information? I know this is not an easy question, but it seems to be a problem which continues to plague our troops already tasked with difficult mission responsibilities.

Kcolliver · 08-14-2014, 11:55

After 1973, the Senior ARVN in II Corps, Pleiku came out as a North Vietnamese Colonel. Any information provided to the ARVN about CCC operations were likely comprimised if the information was provided early enough before the mission

BMT (RIP) · 08-14-2014, 15:45

The best book I have read is "The Secret war Against Hanoi" by Richard H. Shultz Jr.

BMT

**Ambush Master** · 08-14-2014, 16:26

We would provide several "Diversionary" LZ Locations to the HQ but only brief the Air Crews on where we were really going. We had to fly our own Photo-Recon Missions with 2 ships, a Low Bird and a High Bird. The LB would wake up the AA Crews and the HB (Usually both Bird-dogs) would have to fade the heat!!! We even had to develop our own film.

Later
Martin

dennisw · 08-14-2014, 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

We would provide several "Diversionary" LZ Locations to the HQ but only brief the Air Crews on where we were really going. We had to fly our own Photo-Recon Missions with 2 ships, a Low Bird and a High Bird. The LB would wake up the AA Crews and the HB (Usually both Bird-dogs) would have to fade the heat!!! We even had to develop our own film.

Later
Martin

Did you get any flack for not using the Diversionary LZ's? How long did you get away with it before shit hit the fan?

bushmaster11 · 09-15-2014, 02:50

No way could we, the boots on the ground "deep within enemy controlled, denied territopry" could know.

The downfall of recon teams operations were due to the enemy being warned by the Soviets. It was a circuitous route, traitors to Soviets to North Korea to Moscow to North Vietnam.

The Soviets were behind the North Korean seizure of the "Pueblo"intelligence ship.

They sent the seized hardware and software to Moscow on the first thing smoking. They had info from a traitorous ring of navy spies (Their names elude me), all of which were in the intelligence field (The lead shithead recruited his son, his brother, etc for a total of 4 or 5 other navy intel MOS, and able to keep up with current codes and cyphers. They passed to Soviets which then sent all data to North Vietnam.

Northg Vietnam were then able to read everything used by U.S. military. It was like "Ultra" version of allies iin WW II. They read our traffic in real time. So every mission of MACVSOG was known well before the team's insertion including names of team.

There were times when wenat CCN went into LZs and were greeted by bullhorns which were specific as to team leader. I an sure it was the same throuout missions in the other projects.

That had us running in circles trying to find the "moles" which did not exst. The "moles" wre the U S Navy pukes feeding the enemy.

I assume the Air Force had similar trouble with their scheduled attack missions. Their successes were those done extemporaneously.

We didn't have a chance.

J R sends
SOACCN (69-70)

09-21-2014, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

The Walker spy ring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker

I second this.

**Ambush Master** · 09-21-2014, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennisw

Did you get any flack for not using the Diversionary LZ's? How long did you get away with it before shit hit the fan?

Sorry, I just saw this!!

We never heard a word about it. Most likely because Bob Howard was our CO and Billy Greenwood was our Top!! Besides, who was going to tell anybody?!?! The Flight Crews went where we directed them and if they didn't get shot at, they were VERY HAPPY!!!

Later
Martin

LarryW · 09-21-2014, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

The Walker spy ring.

It is a mistake that we don't have a "special case" kind of punishment for this kind of pond-scum. A Devils Island solitary confinement sort of place run by narcissistic amazon bitches. The bullet to the head is way too easy. Find something really cruel and slow. When they go nuts send them to rehab, tell them how sorry you are, and promise them Christmas with their families. Get them all feeling good and better, then call them stupid suckers and start all over again. Torture and agony has a place.

**PRB** · 09-21-2014, 13:21

Dennis, if I learned anything in Astan it is that 'everything' is for sale.

There is no us, we, as in unity in the Karzai Govt....it is still me and mine as in tribe.

If selling information would benefit a tribe/family then they'd sell it.

I honestly believe I met 2 honest Afghans (by our standards) in a 2 year period.

Our standards do not apply.

09-21-2014, 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRB

Dennis, if I learned anything in Astan it is that 'everything' is for sale.

There is no us, we, as in unity in the Karzai Govt....it is still me and mine as in tribe.

If selling information would benefit a tribe/family then they'd sell it.

I honestly believe I met 2 honest Afghans (by our standards) in a 2 year period.

Our standards do not apply.

So would you say that this verifies the old saying: "That money talks and BS walks."?

I ask this because it would seem to be that in a war, SF would have to be prepared to pay first its Guerrilla movement behind enemy lines before training them?

**PRB** · 09-21-2014, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAB32

So would you say that this verifies the old saying: "That money talks and BS walks."?

I ask this because it would seem to be that in a war, SF would have to be prepared to pay first its Guerrilla movement behind enemy lines before training them?

Just because you pay an 'Army' does not mean they will be disloyal...depends upon the culture.
Montagnards in RVN were paid mercenaries by the USSF...they were loyal and fine soldiers.

Astan is a dif scenario and it depends upon what will improve the situation of the family/clan/tribe and not what is good or right or honorable in a western thought process.

If you lie, cheat, steal for the family/tribe you are being honorable and are not a cheap thief but a wise and crafty family member. The thief/traitor will get accolades and positive reinforcement for his deeds....like a gangbanger would.

mark46th · 09-21-2014, 16:30

The Vietnamese had persecuted the Montagnards for centuries. I have a feeling the they would have fought the Vietnamese for free if we only had given them arms and food...

**PRB** · 09-21-2014, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark46th

The Vietnamese had persecuted the Montagnards for centuries. I have a feeling the they would have fought the Vietnamese for free if we only had given them arms and food...

Kurds anyone?

Why don't the Bosnian Muslims raise a regiment to help out...as payback....(holding breath now)

dennisw · 09-21-2014, 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRB

Dennis, if I learned anything in Astan it is that 'everything' is for sale.

There is no us, we, as in unity in the Karzai Govt....it is still me and mine as in tribe.

If selling information would benefit a tribe/family then they'd sell it.

I honestly believe I met 2 honest Afghans (by our standards) in a 2 year period.

Our standards do not apply.

I'm sure you are correct. However, if this situation is known, why do we share mission critical information with the Afghans? It appears we need an alternate methodology as Ambushed Master mentioned earlier.