Left behind?

[Utah Bob]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nati...e98376377.html

[35NCO]

A very tragic story if proven true.

I remember reading about this incident in several different books. Including Roberts Ridge.

The commentary and recollection was that the UAV feed was very confusing to understand whom was who and what exactly was going on. I seem to remember there was several discussions that when his body was finally recovered, there was a lot of questions about how it got there. There was dismissive claims that it was dragged there. But also that he was already dead, and his "Ghost" fought back. Then finally, that he had survived and fought for awhile, after being left.

Sounds like the entire situation was as bad as it gets. Only those that were there will really ever know. If something wrong did happen, hopefully that gets exposed. If not the case, may they rest in peace living and dead.

Prayers and support to those who lost loved ones. May they all be remembered.

[Basenshukai]

What happened on that ridge has been debated for a while. I was not there, so I'm not going to add uninformed conclusions to the debate. But, I will say this, it makes zero sense to take an OP by force by landing your big, noisy, aircraft right on top of it. And, to think that the SEALs were part of a recon team whose leadership should have known better. Sound tactics at the beginning of this operation would have avoided this whole mess.

It's the same with the "Lone Survivor" SEALs. This is their PACE plan for commo:

P- AN/PRC-148 (to communicate from a freaking mountainous ridge to the only support they have)
A- Sat Phone (Seriously?)
C- None
E- None

Again, just terrible TTPs leading to good men suffering and dying.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by Basenshukai

What happened on that ridge has been debated for a while. I was not there, so I'm not going to add uninformed conclusions to the debate. But, I will say this, it makes zero sense to take an OP by force by landing your big, noisy, aircraft right on top of it. And, to think that the SEALs were part of a recon team whose leadership should have known better. Sound tactics at the beginning of this operation would have avoided this whole mess.

It's the same with the "Lone Survivor" SEALs. This is their PACE plan for commo:

P- AN/PRC-148 (to communicate from a freaking mountainous ridge to the only support they have)
A- Sat Phone (Seriously?)
C- None
E- None

Again, just terrible TTPs leading to good men suffering and dying.

I know this acronym changes with Colonels underwear but OKOCA (when I learned it: Observation, Concealment and Cover, Obstacles, Key Terrain and Avenues of Approach. The enemy gets that too. They thought they would just walz up onto the highest mountain (covers nearly all the acronym) and drop bombs on bad guys..... Unopposed! With that PACE plan! Without the next crypto change!

The reason SF never does high speed shit in combat is that we're always planning sensible missions! What's wrong with us?

[Golf1echo]

Many poignant lessons were taken away from ANACONDA, the Roberts Ridge (Takur Ghar) incident and subsequent actions. Command and Control, remote operations in mountainous terrain, CAS, Targeting, etc... While my perspective is from the outside observing what was made public, reading between the lines many folks including members on this board have worked hard to process those lessons to improve similar operations. With many mountain operations inherent indigenous factors add complex challenges due to terrain and general conditions.

Someone familiar with the the timeline and actions would be able to comment regarding the following account as it is an from 2011: http://www.combatreform.org/realmountaindivision.htm

Takur Ghar after the snow melt...

[glebo]

/\ /\ /\ hitting the "like" button

[Old Dog New Trick]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

I would like to make the point we did not learn these lessons. We forgot these lessons and relearned them with blood in operation Anaconda. I don't have any insider info either.

Snip

My point is not only do we forget the basics, I think we underestimate our enemy the last few conflicts. If we ever get into it with a major power that is not third world these lessons we ignore would be even more costly than they have been. The current state of affairs with our military is not promising since they are more worried about being PC and sensitive than they are about being effective.

Sorry for ranting and no disrespect is intended towards anyone in the operation. Just the opposite, I have lots of respect for men that were handed a shit sandwich with extra shit, ate it, and did the best they could under harsh circumstances.

Good thoughts but I wanted make one point clearer. At the beginning of everything and I mean every war ever fought by the US. It's not so much that we underestimate our opponents as much as we overestimate ourselves. As the great Sir. Winston Churchill once quipped: You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

What amazes me most about this whole affair is that if they had a drone that could capture the battle (rescue) down to who's who, why was the LZ recon so f'd up before inserting the team directly into a shit sammich. Those decisions come down rather than up and yet the people at CJSOTF blame a Sr. Chief for the actions on the ground.

I'm not going to knock the SEALs as this would have been the same results for any unit tasked with this mission.

Rest in peace to the fallen and to those that carry the memories of that day.

As far as whether congress and the president approve the MOH for TSGT Chapman's actions after being left for dead in a heated gun fight that's up to them. Many more living and dead have bravely fought above and beyond and have been awarded medals undeserving of their sacrifice.

If this is only about the Air Force feeling left out of the medals ceremony, cry me a river; this isn't the Olympics. TSGT John Chapman and all who died on that mountain didn't give all for medals.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick

Good thoughts but I wanted make one point clearer. At the beginning of everything and I mean every war ever fought by the US. It's not so much that we underestimate our opponents as much as we overestimate ourselves. As the great Sir. Winston Churchill once quipped: You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

I have conversations with my peers regularly about how a war with China or Russia might play out, and the universal opinion is something along the lines of "We're America! Of course we'd kick their ass!"

I find this amusing, in a scary way.

All of our land warfare capabilities are essentially the same as the end of the Cold War, and we have deactivated or reduced a number of the more useful ones (like cluster munitions). Meanwhile, they've studied the shit out of us and have adapted their gear and doctrine specifically to counter us. We're overly focused on chasing bronze age guys around mud huts.

I'd say with a good deal of certainty that Russia/China are much more prepared to fight us today than we are prepared to fight them.

[doctom54]

Originally Posted by scooter

I have conversations with my peers regularly about how a war with China or Russia might play out, and the universal opinion is something along the lines of "We're America! Of course we'd kick their ass!"

I find this amusing, in a scary way.

All of our land warfare capabilities are essentially the same as the end of the Cold War, and we have deactivated or reduced a number of the more useful ones (like cluster munitions). Meanwhile, they've studied the shit out of us and have adapted their gear and doctrine specifically to counter us. We're overly focused on chasing bronze age guys around mud huts.

I'd say with a good deal of certainty that Russia/China are much more prepared to fight us today than we are prepared to fight them.

I agree.

[abc_123]

And the reason we would fight a land war in China would be?

Not saying that I don't agree with the sentiments of this thread and that we need to pay more attention to our heavy armored forces. Not for Asia, but for Europe.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by scooter

I'd say with a good deal of certainty that Russia/China are much more prepared to fight us today than we are prepared to fight them.

Not just Russia and China. I interact with plenty international students in the Q-course. Several from countries well versed in jungle warfare were not amused with SUT and our patrol/ambush doctrine at all.

...hopefully that's because we're saving the real deal for the real deal. Likewise, I do not share 110% of advanced marksmanship stuff with these guys like I do with our SOF/LEO

[PRB]

Originally Posted by frostfire

Not just Russia and China. I interact with plenty international students in the Q-course. Several from countries well versed in jungle warfare were not amused with SUT and our patrol/ambush doctrine at all.

...hopefully that's because we're saving the real deal for the real deal. Likewise, I do not share 110% of advanced marksmanship stuff with these guys like I do with our SOF/LEO

SUT is a basic course designed to introduce skills to non combat MOS's entering a combat MOS.
Having said that I will also say basic patrolling/ambush skills are the same as advanced patrolling/ambush skills...exactly, just executed at a level of instinct.

The basics executed instinctively is what warriorship is all about.

There are no double secret probation ambush skills....just the basics executed at a level of automation and instinctive reaction combined with control (trigger) and mental focus that allows immediate killing with no excess moves or thought.

Think about that.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by abc_123

And the reason we would fight a land war in China would be?

Not saying that I don't agree with the sentiments of this thread and that we need to pay more attention to our heavy armored forces. Not for Asia, but for Europe.

A land war IN China and ground combat AGAINST China are different things, though you are correct that any conflict with China would be a mostly air / naval / space affair. I should have been more clear, the ground concerns were mainly aimed at Russia. That said, capabilities that our ground forces rely on these days lie GPS, satellite communications, ISR, and general radio comms are all threatened by capabilities both countries have developed.

[Leozinho]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

the secretary of the Air Force, Deborah Lee James, directed the service’s Special Operations Command to review the seven Air Force Crosses awarded since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks for possible upgrades. She recently recommended the award to the defense secretary, whose approval is required before it goes to the White House.



Slabinski said he wondered whether the Air Force was motivated as much by hopes of receiving its first Medal of Honor since the Vietnam War as by a desire to fully understand what transpired on the mountain.


I wonder that as well.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Originally Posted by Leozinho

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

the secretary of the Air Force, Deborah Lee James, directed the service’s Special Operations Command to review the seven Air Force Crosses awarded since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks for possible upgrades. She recently recommended the award to the defense secretary, whose approval is required before it goes to the White House.



Slabinski said he wondered whether the Air Force was motivated as much by hopes of receiving its first Medal of Honor since the Vietnam War as by a desire to fully understand what transpired on the mountain.


I wonder that as well.

That was my take away when I read the article. The AF is feeling butt hurt and well it's been high on this POTUSes list to award as many as he can. While the services have routinely denied SOF especially Army SF higher than Silver Stars or the highest awards for bravery in combat.

The bar has always been set high, as it should be but, some sure seem to be handed out while others get downgraded based on rank or specialty. Even posthumously for courage above and beyond.

I'm not against the process and if TSGT Chapman and many others get a second look now that the war has dragged on for fourteen years maybe it is time to concede that the actions of those killed in the earliest days of the GWOT or throughout it have actually met the requirements and rank, MOS, or time in service will not be used as justification to deny them the highest honor this country can bestow upon them.

We all made jokes about it in my day, because the only way to get it was because you were dead. Laughing over beer came the reality of, I'd rather spend the pension money that comes with living.