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Old 01-10-2011, 19:45   #1
dainbrain
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A question about 2nd/3rd line survivability

I had a question regarding kit that has been giving me some problems. I have searched this forum for several days and have been unable to find a definitive answer that my feeble mind can understand. I'm hoping to get some sage advice on the matter from professionals.

I am coming from a civilian hobbyist standpoint.

I have been using ALICE gear for some time now. I run a typical enhanced LBV with a pistol belt, some SAW pouches, couple canteen pouces, butt pack & a Large ALICE ruck.

I have been trying to get some updated MOLLE gear but have been finding it difficult to come up with something that works.

The problem I am finding is that I can't seem to carry enough water/survival kit in my 2nd line. I can't wear a camelback under my ruck so I have to tuck it into my ruck when it's on. If I have to drop my ruck for whatever reason, I feel I have far less ability to survive for several days than I did with my ALICE LBV.

I am seeing all these 'E&E' bags and such that can be detached from your main pack, but to me that doesn't address the possibility that you may have to drop your ruck and not have time to detach an extra pack. With the enhanced LBV, my 2nd line *was* my E&E bag...

I guess what I'm looking for is a good LBV/Ruck combo that is new & fancy but can still allow the modular survivability that ALICE setups have.

I thought that PS.com would be the best place to ask this, I figured that I can't be the only one with this problem.
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Old 01-10-2011, 20:42   #2
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Without knowing what you're using it for and what you have to carry, all I can say is maybe try a Fighting Load Carrier, or FLC. Molle mesh vest with no armor capability. You can get rucks from any number of manufacturers, however they still use the ALICE frame. If you just want a custom ruck, Tactical Tailor offers several modifications to your existing pack.
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:10   #3
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AND if you are 'playing at war,' it doesn't really n
matter much WHAT you use, IMHO!
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Last edited by ZonieDiver; 01-11-2011 at 18:02. Reason: capitalize the D in "AND"
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:54   #4
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http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...r-money-thread

I have found MP.net to be eminently rewarding when researching this topic...



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Old 01-11-2011, 05:18   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dainbrain View Post
The problem I am finding is that I can't seem to carry enough water/survival kit in my 2nd line. I guess what I'm looking for is a good LBV/Ruck combo that is new & fancy but can still allow the modular survivability that ALICE setups have.
If they don't make one, design one yourself.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:06   #6
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How much does water weigh?

How much does water weigh? About 2.2 lbs per qt.

Why are you dropping your ruck? To run faster.

Put those two together and the next question is - "Why try and run with something you don't need right now?"

Unless you are in a dry desert type area you can find more water after you shook off whatever was chasing you.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:09   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZonieDiver View Post
ANd if you are 'playing at war,' it doesn't really n
matter much WHAT you use, IMHO!
I agree.

TR
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:54   #8
dainbrain
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Thanks for the feedback Sirs, much appreciated. I think I'll stick with the 'ain't broke dont fix it' as suggested.

Someone told me once that in times of stress you fall back on your training. This makes me want to train as much as I can for as many situation I can. It's tough trying to be prepared and stay 'in shape' as a civilian, that's why I seek advice from those better men than me.

As for the equipment, I am carrying the things I feel I need to survive in a real-world situation. I like the outdoors, land navigation, hunting, etc. and hope to be more prepared if I get myself lost. Here is what I carry (first line not shown):

MIDDLE LAYER (Second Line):
(Load Bearing Equipment and Web Belt)

• RADIO
• WEAPONS CLEANING KIT
• COMPASS (That you can read at night)
• KNIFE
• FIRST AID PACK
• PONCHO (If not in ruck)
• MATCHES (Waterproof)
• SURVIVAL POUCH
• CANTEENS (x2) or CAMELBAK
• RATIONS
• 550 CORD (100ft)
• STROBE Light
• CHEM Lights
• FLASHLIGHT x2 w/red lens (With extra batteries)
• EXTRA SOCKS (2 pair minimum)


OUTER LAYER (Third Line):
(Rucksack -- Least Essential Items)

• RAIN/WIND JACKET (Green,Black,Brown or Camo)
• E-TOOL (Small shovel)
• PONCHO LINER OR SLEEPING BAG
• GROUND PAD
• CAMELBAK
• 550 CORD (100 feet)
• EXTRA CLOTHING (Socks, BDU's, T-shirt)
• HOOCH (Half tent shelter)


Plus whatever trip-specific stuff, anything from a bunch of ropes/climbing equipment to hunting rifle & ammunition. And yes, sometimes an airsoft weapon. I use them as a training aid.

I could see a situation where I might have to drop my main pack in a non-combative scenario... perhaps I make a mistake on a mountain and have to cut it loose, maybe I get a little too close to some boar, or another animal and piss it off?

I'm just trying to train and train right. I appreciate any advice I get.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:27   #9
Pete
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Take just.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dainbrain View Post

MIDDLE LAYER (Second Line):
(Load Bearing Equipment and Web Belt)

• RADIO
• WEAPONS CLEANING KIT
• COMPASS (That you can read at night)
• KNIFE
• FIRST AID PACK
• PONCHO (If not in ruck)
• MATCHES (Waterproof)
• SURVIVAL POUCH
• CANTEENS (x2) or CAMELBAK
• RATIONS
• 550 CORD (100ft)
• STROBE Light
• CHEM Lights
• FLASHLIGHT x2 w/red lens (With extra batteries)
• EXTRA SOCKS (2 pair minimum).......
Take just the listed equipment above, pick a weekend (moderate weather time period - early spring to late fall - I'm being nice to you) a month out and go to a primitive trail system or park that allows you to hike a trail, camp out and build a small fire.

Then just do it - regardless of the weather - and don't add any gear because of the weather.

I would suggest dropping the poncho in favor of a space/camp blanket - the ones with grommets and a shiny side. Buid a fire against a large rock with the blanket as a lean-to shelter on the other side and you'll sleep fairly well. With a flop hat it can be drapped over your body and tied under your chin with two small pieces of 550 cord. The flop hat will drip the water away from your neck area.

And who are you going to talk to with all those lights? If you have a radio you don't need all the lights - tell 'um what you have. If you ain't got comms having all those lights mean nothing. If you have comms you can get by with a head mounted white/red LED light system (them things are small) with extra batteries and a candle (same size as a chem light - but many more uses).

Think you can get by on just one pair of extra socks?

The month out date means you can't fudge your pick based on the weather - you go whatever the weather is that weekend - and you don't repack based on the weather. Pack your gear, set it in the truck, pick your date and then go.

PS - you would be amazed at how small a large lawn/leaf plastic bag is before you unfold it - and all the things you can make out of it in the woods.

PPS - All you guys reading this coming up with your own lists - do the same thing. Take the gear out and work it. See if it does what you think it will.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:57   #10
sinjefe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dainbrain View Post
I had a question regarding kit that has been giving me some problems. I have searched this forum for several days and have been unable to find a definitive answer that my feeble mind can understand. I'm hoping to get some sage advice on the matter from professionals.

I am coming from a civilian hobbyist standpoint.

I have been using ALICE gear for some time now. I run a typical enhanced LBV with a pistol belt, some SAW pouches, couple canteen pouces, butt pack & a Large ALICE ruck.

I have been trying to get some updated MOLLE gear but have been finding it difficult to come up with something that works.

The problem I am finding is that I can't seem to carry enough water/survival kit in my 2nd line. I can't wear a camelback under my ruck so I have to tuck it into my ruck when it's on. If I have to drop my ruck for whatever reason, I feel I have far less ability to survive for several days than I did with my ALICE LBV.

I am seeing all these 'E&E' bags and such that can be detached from your main pack, but to me that doesn't address the possibility that you may have to drop your ruck and not have time to detach an extra pack. With the enhanced LBV, my 2nd line *was* my E&E bag...

I guess what I'm looking for is a good LBV/Ruck combo that is new & fancy but can still allow the modular survivability that ALICE setups have.

I thought that PS.com would be the best place to ask this, I figured that I can't be the only one with this problem.

Dude, you're a dork
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:13   #11
dainbrain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
Take just the listed equipment above, pick a weekend (moderate weather time period - early spring to late fall - I'm being nice to you) a month out and go to a primitive trail system or park that allows you to hike a trail, camp out and build a small fire.
Thank you!

I will take your advice and put my gear to work. I have done some long (for me, 'long' is only about a week hunting trip not too far from civilization) trips with just my gear and been very comfortable, I always took all my gear but never forced myself to see how it would work with the minimal amount.

As for the original topic, I will stick with what works for me as suggested.

Thanks all for the advice. It's very very appreciated.

sinjefe, yes, I'm a huge dork.
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:29   #12
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Bad weather and hard times

Quote:
Originally Posted by dainbrain View Post
.......
As for the original topic, I will stick with what works for me as suggested.

Thanks all for the advice. It's very very appreciated.

sinjefe, yes, I'm a huge dork.
It is bad weather and hard times that make you work and think - and bring the memories.

Lots of people talk of what they would like to do - and make little lists of things that sound cool. It ain't shit until you take it out and work it.

So work it - and remember to bulk and weight out your weapon and ammo when you're loading up if your going to a place that does not allow weapons and ammo. Weapons and ammo weigh a lot and if you drop the bulk and weight you can sneak in a bunch of Twinkies - no fair - thats cheating .

Report back after the trip with a picture of your primitive camp site.

And remember Dorks can grow out of it - Idiots are stuck on stupid.
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:41   #13
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And remember Dorks can grow out of it - Idiots are stuck on stupid.
Hmmm, if I didn't know any better, I'd say someone took that personally.
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:46   #14
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Dorks

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Originally Posted by sinjefe View Post
Hmmm, if I didn't know any better, I'd say someone took that personally.
I said that they "CAN" grow out of it. A large % don't grab the chance to change and just shuffle through life and into old age as Dorks. So that could mean an old Dork is an Idiot who never took that chance.
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:58   #15
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I like to send anecdotes around work. Do I have reprint rights?
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