Old 09-13-2004, 14:55   #91
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Originally Posted by Razor
Lightweight and breathable is nice, but durable is much more important.
I remember a few people saying earlier in this thread they vastly preferred 100% ripstop poplin cotton to 50/50 NYCO. I've read that the new ACU will be either 100% cotton or 50/50 polyester/cotton. For the purposes of making a uniform that is first and foremost durable, but also lightweight & breathable, which of the three materials above would you say is best? Or a material not listed?
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Old 09-13-2004, 15:24   #92
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Originally Posted by odoylerules
I remember a few people saying earlier in this thread they vastly preferred 100% ripstop poplin cotton to 50/50 NYCO. I've read that the new ACU will be either 100% cotton or 50/50 polyester/cotton. For the purposes of making a uniform that is first and foremost durable, but also lightweight & breathable, which of the three materials above would you say is best? Or a material not listed?
I want 100% cotton, ripstop poplin for warm weather climates.

I have one set of the 50/50 HW BDUs, and in warm weather (much less HOT!), they suck, BIG TIME. Hot, sticky, and clammy.

TR
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:58   #93
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Hi

Yup..all very valid points...although I do disagree with the "eco challenge guru"..I dont know why but so many guys have this thing against people who race in adventure races..hahaha...why?

The majority of them are very down to earth people..unlike Mr.Mark Burnett who..isnt very popular in the adventure racing community. But then again, thats a totally different topic..

Good points about why not to use lighter, more expensive materials for BDU's...

rgds

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Old 09-14-2004, 12:25   #94
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
I want 100% cotton, ripstop poplin for warm weather climates.
Would it not then just make sense to reinstate the older, much less expensive (especially compared to ACU), more comfortable (according to most of you guys who have experience with them) 3d pattern jungle fatigues in Army Shade OG107? And for use in the Sandbox, same thing but some khaki shade instead of OG 107?

I've read that 1st pattern jungles were based on the jump jackets that none other than Bill Yarborough was responsible for designing and the further patterns of that were further improvements on an already good design...if it's not broke, don't fix it?

Is there something I'm not understanding fully?
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Old 09-14-2004, 14:03   #95
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Originally Posted by odoylerules
Would it not then just make sense to reinstate the older, much less expensive (especially compared to ACU), more comfortable (according to most of you guys who have experience with them) 3d pattern jungle fatigues in Army Shade OG107? And for use in the Sandbox, same thing but some khaki shade instead of OG 107?

I've read that 1st pattern jungles were based on the jump jackets that none other than Bill Yarborough was responsible for designing and the further patterns of that were further improvements on an already good design...if it's not broke, don't fix it?

Is there something I'm not understanding fully?
Yeah.

The need to sell something new to the U.S. Government, and the need for someone (person or organization) to come up with something new to validate their existence.

This looks like a pitiful attempt by some leg to come up with something new to be stylish, look spiffy in garrison, and be comfortable in the air conditioned office.

I see nothing wrong with the jungles, other than their abbreviated service life. I would us a camo pattern, though, and sleeve pockets.

TR
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Old 09-14-2004, 14:18   #96
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This looks like a pitiful attempt by some leg to come up with something new to be stylish, look spiffy in garrison, and be comfortable in the air conditioned office.
Why aren't Class B's or A's used anymore? According AR 670-1, a "Service uniform (is) (w)orn in garrison environments when the wear of utility or dress uniforms is not required or appropriate." I read that as they're not intended for formal use (ie the way they're used now), hence the dress uniform. Then the very name of the BDU implies it distinctly is NOT for garrison use.

What's wrong with using a different uniform for a different area? I mean, everyone owns at least Class B's and Class A's, they might as well use them. The only uniform that anyone can be expected to not automatically have would be the Dress (which all officers own) and Mess. Even then, enlisted have the option of Green Dress. My proposal: Field = jungles. Summer, in garrison = Class B's. Winter, in garrison = Class A's. Other = Dress or Mess uniform, as appropriate.

As a famous radio personality whose name escapes me would ask:

"What do you think?"

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Old 09-14-2004, 17:00   #97
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Originally Posted by odoylerules
Why aren't Class B's or A's used anymore? According AR 670-1, a "Service uniform (is) (w)orn in garrison environments when the wear of utility or dress uniforms is not required or appropriate." I read that as they're not intended for formal use (ie the way they're used now), hence the dress uniform. Then the very name of the BDU implies it distinctly is NOT for garrison use.

What's wrong with using a different uniform for a different area? I mean, everyone owns at least Class B's and Class A's, they might as well use them. The only uniform that anyone can be expected to not automatically have would be the Dress (which all officers own) and Mess. Even then, enlisted have the option of Green Dress. My proposal: Field = jungles. Summer, in garrison = Class B's. Winter, in garrison = Class A's. Other = Dress or Mess uniform, as appropriate.

As a famous radio personality wose name escapes me would ask:

"What do you think?"
If you think the name BDU is not synonymous with garrison duties, how do you feel about the name, "Maternity BDUs"?

I do not like the B's or A's because they are dress uniforms, they are polyester, they suck for daily activities, and daily duties would be pretty silly in a tie and low quarters. Having had the opportunity to wear them frequently while assigned to Ft. Leavenworth, I can tell you they are hot and sticky in the summer, and there is no way to describe walking a half mile in Class A's, garrison cap and low quarters, with the temp at 15 below zero, a 40mph wind, and 12 inches of snow on the ground.

The last practical set of Class B's we had was Khakis, and it was a great uniform, comfortable and practical.

I do not know why we have so many different Dress uniforms. I understand that the Chief of Staff has some new ideas on Dress uniforms.

And that's all I have to say about that.

TR
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Old 09-14-2004, 18:36   #98
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Sir, that's a good point about the Maternity BDU's, one that failed to cross my mind. Even when I was writing about it, it seemed a tad silly to use A's or B's, as one wouldn't want to mess them up some how. That, and I'm not a proponent of any of the Greens (Service, Dress or B's...they serve no purpose by their very existence and are ugly.) I agree on the Khakis and would've mentioned them, but I thought it was extraneous and I didn't want to start an entirely new discussion right there.

I can see what you're saying about the cold weather in Class A's, but are you saying that problem would be alleviated by usage of the Khakis (or BDU's for that matter)? Cold is cold, and it seems the best way to fix that would be the "coat, all weather, black," which I believe (unfoundedly, of course), would look rather sharp with Khakis. Even better would be the same coat, in the tan color used by the USMC.

The sheer number of Dress uniforms in the inventory is somewhat ridiculous. Green Service & Dress, Blue & White Dress & Mess & Evening Mess, the Black Mess for females only. It appears that the new CSA may eliminate all of those save the Dress Blue with Class A insignia and a Mess Uniform, which would be a pretty good move, IMHO, if only for eliminating something to the tune of 8 chapters of AR 670-1.

A further offshoot of this is a few other things that would be best gone. Cardigans, pullovers and sweaters come to mind, along with the Army Service Ribbon and NCOES ribbons. But once again, that is a very different discussion for another day, which is completely unrelated to "New BDU's."
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:16   #99
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Army uniforms

*Hijack*

I too think that aside from the field uniforms we have in the army, (which I think are some of the best in the world,) the dress/service uniforms we have are many and as a whole not that good looking. I think the Army had it right in decades past, but the constant op tempo the Army has, I think its certainly not that important to fix the dress uniform problems right now. I think the CG has plenty on his plate right now.

But I would I say we have too many gull darn gidgets and widgets on our uniform. I have seen the CIB/CMB's doled out to people who don't deserve them and BSM's handed out like candy since I have deployed. I used to wear my first CIB that I was awarded from serving in the first Gulf War. But after this second gulf war, I quit wearing it, or the one with the star I am now authorized to wear.

Here is why: Of the three rifle companies who deployed in our Battalion, one fire team, killed 3 iraqi insurgents, and our single company got mortared twice. Because of this the entire BN, even those REMF's who were unfit to travel north with us, (because of disciplinary problems, and lack of physical fortitude) are wearing them. Even the BC who was on leave when the 3 insurgents were killed, and was not at camp when we were mortared, is wearing one.

My father, actually served in Korea as a grunt and earned 2 Bronze Stars (w/V device), and a CIB. I don't know what he did, cause he never talks about it. I consider it a personal insult to all of those who actually earned the badge to continue wearing it. So I don't.

Many units in the Army, depending on the commander, have no shame, and will stop at nothing to hand out bogus awards. There are regulations for administering these awards, but when LTC's don't follow them, I think appropriate for the Army to step in and implement change

There are too many ribbons and medals and badges and patches and name tags and branch insignia and unit crests and service stripes and combat hash marks and unit awards and on and on.

We look like carnies selling buttons and ribbons at the fair!

A simple classy minimalist uniform, that looks sharp, but is free of all this crap is what we need. If we were to use shades of grey, with black ranks and stripes, and a high collar like the west point cadet uniform we would look sharp. I think grey with black buttons/stripes present a look that is kick ass.

If you need all those badges to make you look like a stud your prolly not a stud. I think we have a culture of I am better than you cuz I have more stuff, instead of a culture of what have you done for the Army today?

Imagine a Soldier who would have to be good at PT to make his uniform look good. We are wrapping turds in ribbons these days.

I am a SSG authorized 5 rows of ribbons and CIB (2nd award) AASLT and Airborne, Infantry so I have the blue cord, and disks. If I can give up this stuff so can others. I would glady only wear ribbons given for acts of heroism or valor, there should be damn few others that are authorized, shit can the CIB's (every pogue in the BN's are getting them now) or at least change the requirements so that only those directly engaged in a fight are authorized.(I doubt that the Army could honestly police its ranks to do so correctly)

And name tags? Well everywhere you go that requires a name tag usually requires some sort of facility ID card as well that must be worn at all times ( e.g. the pentagon) Shit can the name tags.

We would be a much more honest Army if you just didn't have a procedure to award the lies and half truths written by some for awards.

This also helps send the message "An Army of One" by making all Soldiers look the same in the uniform. We should all be riflemen first and whatever MOS you are second.

The high collar could have a US on the right side and a SMALL branch insignia with BN digits underneath, on the left side. Epaulets for officers, sleeve rank insignia for enlisted. A thick black stripe going down the leg on the trousers. I think it would be cool, its a start.

*Drop the Army service ribbon.

*Drop the PLDC ribbon, you got the stripes...enough said.

*Drop the over seas ribbon...you are doing your job enough said.

*Drop the National defense service medal.

*Drop the Airborne, Air Assault ovals.

*Drop the shoulder crests. Over kill.

*Drop unit citations unless you earn them, wear them on the left side.

*Drop the name plate, tacky.

*One marksmanship (MM, SS, or EX) qual badge no clasps.

*One unit crest on the right side.

*NCO rank more apparent by a prominant display on the sleeves, I mean to say larger stripes on the jacket.

True, a change of uniform does not speak to the root of the problem, which I don't have the answers for. But I hope that the uniform suggested sends a message to all of us, that we are all riflemen first, and distinguishes those whose bravery or deeds of valor, stick out like a sore thumb no matter where they go. My impetus behind the idea of a uniform without so many bobbles and bits of shiny things, is a deep desire to keep us honest. When someone walks in a room with a medal on his chest, it should mean something. Lets honor those among us deserving of recognition. But be honest about who those people are. Keep the uniform simple, uncluttered, and sharp.
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Old 09-17-2004, 14:56   #100
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I agree, dress uniforms aren't very important right now. However, for sheer academic pruposes, I'll post my opinions on the matter, if I may. First off there are way too many things on the uniform, I agree. More on this later.

I also agree handing out CIBs the way they do is ridculous. I've got a great friend who was in Panama and Iraq as an 82d Airborne paratrooper. Says Panama was the real deal, but all he did in Iraq was drive thru the desert. Saw nary an Iraqi, took and sent out no fire whatsoever. Then, all the cherries in his unit who hadn't been to Panama, got their CIBs for nothing. He was somewhat perturbed, to say the least. However, if you have to make sure no freebee CIBs are given out, then there's no way to be sure they aren't, if you know what I mean. I believe it was Sneaky/NDD who once said "I've officially been to war once, and have been shot at many times," coupled with "I was incredulous when they gave me a CMB. I didn't patch up one patient under fire nor did I recieve fire or fire my weapon.

Once again, I agree that the uniform should be simplified. Here are some of my unfounded, NBTNDT 17 year old high school student opinions. I'm not claiming intellectual property rights on any of this, but a lot of the stuff you said I've actually thought up too, so I guess there's more than one of us.

Ditch ASR, NCOES, Reserve Components Overseas Training Ribbon and Overseas Service Ribbon. They're all implied. That, and I remember my 82d buddy got 3 ribbons for Iraq, then an OSR because he was in the desert for 6 months, then 2 battle stars. One for each operation, I believe. Even though he saw no battle whatsoever. Also, the NDSM & GWOTSM have got to go. You shouldn't get a ribbon just for being on Active Duty (they give them to academy cadets too and I believe the National Guard now, even without being mobilizied/activated). Tying into this, no Good Conduct Medal or Reserve Components Achievement Medal (correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure an RCAM is more like a CGM than an AAM). Why should you get a medal for not getting in trouble? And officers can't even get them, that's like saying enlisted are expected to get in trouble while officers and gentlemen are expected to not. No one should be expected to get in trouble! Ditch background trims for wings. Lose DUI on the shoulders, along with CLI period. Everyone should know who their TL->BC are.

"Drop unit citations unless you earn them, wear them on the left side."
I've thought that, verbatim, for eons.

"Drop the name plate, tacky."
This too. They can call you by rank.

"One marksmanship (MM, SS, or EX) qual badge no clasps."
Expert only or none at all, require everyone to qualify for what is now expert.

No unit crest, have everyone wear officer style branch insignia, with regimental affiliation numbers in them.

Stripe size is fine, but no shoulder boards for NCOs.

"True, a change of uniform does not speak to the root of the problem, which I don't have the answers for. But I hope that the uniform suggested sends a message to all of us, that we are all riflemen first, and distinguishes those whose bravery or deeds of valor, stick out like a sore thumb no matter where they go. My impetus behind the idea of a uniform without so many bobbles and bits of shiny things, is a deep desire to keep us honest. When someone walks in a room with a medal on his chest, it should mean something. Lets honor those among us deserving of recognition. But be honest about who those people are. Keep the uniform simple, uncluttered, and sharp."

I agree. The 82d guy from earlier has 16 ribbons, when in fact, after eliminating the frivolous ones, he's down to 3. Four AAM's, an AFEM w/arrowhead and a Southwest Asia Service Medal (no battle stars and only one ribbon per TO.)

I think a new dress uniform should be a lot like the Dress Blues. Blue is the traditional color of the Army uniform, however; a solid black would be very good looking as well. The blouse would be pocketless and maybe full sized medals would be worn instead of ribbons. Pants would NOT be the light blue color of most, but rather the dark "general officer" color. No headgear but green & black berets (for SF and Rangers, not SF support, not RTB). Logic being headgear isn't required with Mess Uniform and I really doubt there are many fans of the garrison cap & service cap. Guys on "SF status" don't wear the SF tab, as the headgear implies it. Belted jacket, sabers/swords for officers/NCO's. SF wears Yarboroughs instead. Shoes not preshined. Maybe aviators wear Aviator jackets instead of the Dress blouse. Other badges to lose: Recruiter, Career Counselor, Drill Sergeant, Driver, Physical Fitness, most of aviation but pilots. Lose the cardigans, pullovers and sweaters, I just hate them. Any medals not involving deploying to a TO (AFEM type, GWOTEM, etc, have to be in battle to get a battle star), bravery (MOH, SS, BS, etc, make 'em hard to get) or meritorious service (SM, MSM, ARCOM - but don't give out ARCOMs to guys for ETSing/PCSing). No Infantry blue (send all males to 11B OSUT before AIT, sorta like the USMC).

And that's all folks. It's worth what you paid.

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Old 09-17-2004, 19:01   #101
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Do you guys know why they give out ribbons and awards? They are important in many cases.
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Old 09-17-2004, 20:33   #102
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Do you guys know why they give out ribbons and awards? They are important in many cases.
No Sarnt. The Army Service Ribbon just seems incredibly silly to this NBTNDT. I mean, you're in the Army, you MUST have gone to Basic. I can see why the MOH and Silver Star, etc are important, but a Basic Training Graduation Ribbon?

But if I'm incorrect, which I assume I am; I really would like to be enlightened/informed as to why they are important in many cases.
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Old 09-17-2004, 20:50   #103
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Builds morale and pride. If you're Joe Snuffy the egg cook in the mess hall, is what you do not important? When is he ever going to get a chance to earn a ribbon? The only time anybody ever talks to him is when he screws up their order. A lot of people need positive re-enforcement on a regular basis. Its those little things that keep some people humming right a long. And everybody likes a pat on the back every now and then.

Look at uniforms of various nations for example. The Phrench have very loud uniforms and conduct grand parades. Why? Because they lose all the time and they need it.

Very few people are QPs in the world and even less can draw their satisfaction from within.

The best commanders I ever had were tough, but fair. And would commend as well as ream. They were spare with their praise so it meant a lot, but then they weren't dealing with 19 year-old truck drivers either.

The green Army is different from what you see here.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

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Old 09-17-2004, 21:16   #104
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I suppose I could have seen that coming. Cook Snuffy is not important, though. He is CRUCIAL. I mean, an Army travels on its stomach. Shouldn't he derive pride from that? Maybe I can't get into his brain, but an empty medal is meaningless. That's why handing out black berets to everyone didn't raise morale - they knew it was meaningless if everyone has one. If everyone has an ASR, how'll that keep morale up?

I agree completely with all you're saying about positive reinforcement, pats on the back (yes we all need them, and the way people treat a guy on crutches yeah does make me feel "special"), keeping morale high, I just don't understand how little ribbons and gleaming things and berets so on so forth can do that unless they mean something. Like, a WWII paratrooper asking a SP4 how many jumps he has. When the young man tells him 37, he replies, I have four with a huge grin on his face, cuz he knows that his jumps mean more than all the training jumps in the world. (Saw this one at Bragg on Division Review Weekend, you could see the air deflating from the kid). And then on the other side of that scale, real deal medals getting handed out like candy make almost all medals meaningless. On Magician's website, he talks about Jim Pickering with the 90 in Grenada, only getting an ARCOM then Battalion staff all recieving Bronze Stars.

If so few can draw pride from within, why not instill it in them? Point in case: Rangers know their lineage, live the Creed and say it every morning, you can see pride radiating from them. Paratroopers too. The elite in general. That's because they are brought up to feel that way and they feel important. Why not raise cooks the same? When you arrive at the 91st Food Service Battalion or wherever, get a letter from the BC "welcome to the finest mess hall in the U.S. Army," know the unit's history, what mess halls it's served in around the world, I dunno, give them somethign meaningful to be proud of.

Why should all the great commanders be Combat Arms, Airborne, HSLD stuff? Why can't a QM corps officer be proud that the best Army in the world depends on him to do his job and his unit as well, then treat them as such? To quote from Patton:

Patton: "Where's you're helmet?"
Cook: (laughing) I'm a cook, sir.
Patton: You're a soldier.

Every solider deserves a tough and fair CO, not just SF & Infantry. When you mess up, a reaming is heading your way, when you serve the entire 1st Army in 10 minutes time with a broken stove and adapt, improvise and overcome you deserve a commendation. A 19 year old truck driver and a 35 year old 18 series guy are both Soldiers. Mind you, we both know who is more qualified, but they are both there to close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver.

Perhaps I am a wet-behind-the-ears optimist, and the best way of summing this up is what you said: the Green Army is different from SF.
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