Old 02-26-2010, 10:56   #61
koz
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Originally Posted by Tegboarder View Post

Back to the .223/5.56 - The lower receiver is stamped with all the manufacturing information to include what the barrel that particular lower came out of the factory mounted to. If it's stamped .223 then it was made to only fire the .223 Remington and firing the hotter burning 5.56 will damage it. If it's stamped 5.56 it will fire both since it's made to handle that hotter burn.


Rambling complete.
The reason you don't want to fire 5.56 in a 223 is the chamber pressure in the barrel, not because the lower.

This is from DPMS -
DPMS makes either a 5.56 or a .223 chamber.
To verify your chamber, look to the underside of the barrel, forward of the gas block for the barrel stamp. The stamp will indicate your chamber and twist rate. If your barrel is stamped .223, only American made, factory produced .223 ammo should be used.

DPMS does not warranty the use of 5.56 in our .223 chambers.

Because the .223 has a shorter throat to it's chamber than the 5.56, using the higher pressure 5.56 ammo will erode the throat leading to accuracy issues and possible malfunctions over time. The 5.56 chamber with it's longer throat is designed for the higher pressure rounds and will handle the lower pressure .223 without issue.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:04   #62
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While not an 18B [though I do aspire to be one], I decided to toss my hat into the ring and bring up some small M4 related points not mentioned:

The M4A1's selector switch can be set to Safe, Semi or Auto , while the M4 [note the lack of additional annotations to the model number] comes only with Safe, Semi, or Burst [3 rounds].

Anyone who is particularly tall, or just has long arms in general will have some trouble adjusted to the weapon's shortened size in comparison to the M16. Being 6' myself I've found that in the end just holding the magazine well paid off more than finding a comfortable place to grip the rails.

For those who have never tried it, installing the upper rail is a pain if you're not paying attention due to a small forked bracket who's forks sit on either side of the gas tube and hooks up into the star shaped ring in front of the hand guard retention springs. The easiest method to get it to slip into place uses gravity or a small object [like a thin pen, or small screwdriver] to nudge it into place. Because of the difficulty to install the upper rail system and the likelihood of damage from incorrect installations by users has led to the directive that user-level maintenance does not permit the removal of the upper rail system.

Because of the carry-over of the Picatinny Rail System to the M4 nearly all accessories designed for use the M16 are compatible with the M4.

Personally I've found both the M16 and M4 to be fairly decent weapons on the range when using standard-issue ball ammo [and with the proper amount of elbow grease applied to keep it clean], as for combat I can't attest for either one's attributes due to never managing to be in direct contact with the enemy [I did receive a regular showering of mortars/rockets my last deployment. Honestly rain is better, even if it leaves that syrupy mud in it's wake] so I'll leave that to those who have.
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Last edited by Joe_Snuffy; 02-26-2010 at 12:53.
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Old 02-26-2010, 13:15   #63
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To clarify on the lower receiver stamping I am not saying that the round you fire will affect the lower receiver; but if you are looking at a complete factory weapon with a lower and upper that were paired together, then the stamp on the magazine well is referring to the chamber on the upper. I wasn't aware of a stamp on the underside of the barrel. That being the case it's a better place to check that you are using the right ammo considering you are not always going to be looking at an upper and a lower that were made together.

TR, I finished the course back in May. I'll update the profile right now.

Last edited by Tegboarder; 02-26-2010 at 13:19.
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Old 02-26-2010, 13:56   #64
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Not only does the barrel have the caliber/chamber markings, it also tells you the manufacturer, if the barrel was magnetic particle inspected, and if it is chrome lined.

TR
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Old 07-10-2010, 12:33   #65
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AP news reports that the Army is going to rely on the M-110 sniper rifle because the effective shooting range is more than 2,500 feet,while the M-4 range is under 1,000.......... Don't jump on the messenger now,I'm just reporting the latest news by AP.................

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Old 07-10-2010, 18:02   #66
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Some excellent posts here, hidden amongst the derails. I have to admit Im old and set in my ways and have resisted the M4, mainly over barrel length. But reading posts like one zero's and many others from those who have actually used the weapon downrange is changing my mind. I tend to believe people who's lives have depended on the performance of a weapon over those shooting jello. I still love my triangle guard M16A1, but now Im thinking I need to add an M4 to the collection and find a range with some 600 meter lanes. The biggest problem I have seen with the M16 family during its long service, using the wrong ammo for the current design. We started off that way, and apparently needed to learn that lesson more than once.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:38   #67
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OK, even DPMS could not explain it right. Here is some information I gathered from various sources, including a gent who may pop in here from time to time, the 45B class and the fine folks at Crane. Funny how the real experts all say the same thing about the 5.56 and .223 differences.

Can you fire 5.56 in a .223? Well, in short yeah you can. Are there issues with it, well maybe so..... Will it blow your gun apart and send pieces of the gun thru your brain housing group, probably not. But lets take a look at what the issues are for reals.

First of all there are three major types of AR chambers. The .223 SAMMI, the .223 Wylde and the 5.56 NATO. It's all so crazy and convoluted that we will skip right to the point of it all and look at it in layman's terms.

The real issues are the case neck, free bore length, throat angle and headspace. Now what do they each mean?

Case neck- Thats where the bullet sits in the case.

Free bore length- Thats the length between cases end and where the lands and groove start. This is where the bullet is actually free in the bore when it leaves the case. This affects the pressure of the round as the lands and grooves cause pressure to build behind the bullet.

Throat angle- This is the angle of slope where the free bore ends and transitions into the lands and grooves.

Headspace- This is the depth of the chamber

Now the headspace on all chambers is the same at 1.4636, so that is a non issue. The throat angle is significantly different though, 3 degrees for the SAMMI and 1.25 degrees for the other two. How does this affect you? It makes the pressure in the SAMMI start quicker as the pressure against the round is applied more abruptly.

Free bore length is a big issue in the three. The free bore for the SAMMI is a mere .025, the Wylde is .062 and the 5.56 NATO is .057. What does that mean? It means that the SAMMI builds pressure a lot faster than the Wylde or NATO chambers. Add this to the fact that NATO rounds are already a few hundred feet per second faster and as much as 5,000 PSI higher in pressure and you have an issue building rapidly. As is the pressure.

Does this mean that your gun is going to explode by using NATO ammo in your .223, probably not. They are massively over engineered and generally pretty safe for these kinds of things. I personally have fired thousands and thousands of NATO rounds in a .223 chamber. They are designed to take pressure spikes and if God blows the weapon up in your face, he is pissed at you and you would have gotten screwed some other way if you had not been shooting at the time. But it is NOT recommended all the same.

Thanks again to all the sources that helped me compile this info.
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Old 07-13-2010, 23:34   #68
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AP news reports that the Army is going to rely on the M-110 sniper rifle because the effective shooting range is more than 2,500 feet,while the M-4 range is under 1,000.......... Don't jump on the messenger now,I'm just reporting the latest news by AP.................

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No one as yet answer the question of the M-110 replacing the M-4 and why,do all you agree?

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Old 07-14-2010, 00:31   #69
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No one as yet answer the question of the M-110 replacing the M-4 and why,do all you agree?

Big Teddy



No idea if Army is actually looking at the M110 as a replacement, per se, but my take is as follows: bad idea.


While the weapon has a considerably longer range, and more power, it seems, in my very limited experience, to be very finicky. Dirt in the upper of an M16/M4 causes problems...a piece of dust in the upper of the M110 seems to cause stoppages. Tolerances are too tight. It would be like taking a bench-rest gun into combat.

The M110 is a very "purpose-built," weapon, and certainly not a battle rifle. An AR-10 or SR-25 might be a better bet, but I have no direct experience with those at all.

In summary, I think the advantages of more power and better accuracy would fail to outweigh the disadvantage of massively reduced reliability in the hands of the average soldier, who won't be carrying it in a drag bag to keep it clean until it needs to be used.

Awaiting discussion.

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Old 07-14-2010, 01:05   #70
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Does this mean that your gun is going to explode by using NATO ammo in your .223, probably not. They are designed to take pressure spikes and if God blows the weapon up in your face, he is pissed at you and you would have gotten screwed some other way if you had not been shooting at the time.

Oh, so THAT was the problem…! :
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:16   #71
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No one as yet answer the question of the M-110 replacing the M-4 and why,do all you agree?

Big Teddy
Not interchangable, not suitable for a one-for-one replacement.

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Old 07-14-2010, 08:45   #72
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Uhhhhh... The M110 and the SR-25 are essentially the same rifle. Both are built by Knights.


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The M110 is a very "purpose-built," weapon, and certainly not a battle rifle. An AR-10 or SR-25 might be a better bet, but I have no direct experience with those at all.
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Old 07-14-2010, 10:50   #73
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And with a piss poor sustained rate of fire. If the Army began to phase in the M110 to replace the M4 (and this is laughable as they are both built for a reason, and those reasons don't even come close to being remotely the same other than shooting people) it would be one of the most colossal mistakes in military history. Look at the problems that were experienced in Wanat with high sustained rates of fire in the M4 (added to piss poor user level maintenance) and the issues we had when we took the M110 down range. Broken pieces everywhere. In less than 90 days I had 2/3rds dead lined and could not get replacement parts. The Marines got theirs, found accuracy to be unacceptable and reliability was horrid. So they dropped them last I heard.

I have one of the original SASS rifles built by DPMS for the military contract and the Ops Inc can for it and it runs circles around our M110s in both accuracy and reliability departments. How Knights got the award for the rifle contract is beyond me. But I do seem to remember and investigation about that.....

If the Army wanted to bring back a 308 battle rifle, they already have them and we see them coming back more and more. I just finished teaching a DMR class for a bunch of engineers that got issued the EBR as part of their deployment kit, and when we were done with them in a weeks time these guys who are nothing special when it comes to shooting were making 600m head shots regularly in 4 knot full value winds. They could engage larger targets (3X3) out to 1275 with 3 of 4 shots. the weapon works, why mess with a good thing by bringing in a POS.
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Old 07-14-2010, 19:08   #74
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Uhhhhh... The M110 and the SR-25 are essentially the same rifle. Both are built by Knights.
Agreed. Clearly, my mind was elsewhere.

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Old 08-17-2010, 20:21   #75
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M110 is not replacing the M4

The M110 is a cheaper SDM Rifle.

I know this, because a High School friend who's with the 82nd is using it as a DSM.

It's cheaper, and easier to manufacture compared to an M14 EBR.

It's also easier to train on, since it's relatively the same AR 15 style American troops are already familiar with. It's an off the shelf grab and go, with 80% compatibility aside from calibre to an M16/M4 series rifle in use. (i.e. you don't need additional training to just pick it up, go into a fire fight, and come back, SPORTS works the same for it, as any other AR 15 style weapon)

Unlike the SR-25, the M110 also has built in iron-sights. Meaning if crap hit the fan, you can go straight to the irons, just like an M4 if your ACOG went FUBAR.

For recon teams, (like that my friend is on) the M110 can have a suppressor mounted on it, or interchange barrel with one built in. Just like the M4.

The M110 also has a rail system, which is compatible with all components used for an M4 rail systems. (Lasers, lights, stun guns, Cherry blasters [don't ask] etc.)

And, unlike the SR-25, the M110 can be mounted onto a tripod, or even an HMMWV for a more stable fireing platform with the proper component mounted onto the lower rail system. (not that it's very practicle)

M110 I've been looking to learn a great deal about.

Also, the M110 is due to replace the M14 EBR in both regular, and airborne units.

I don't know how popular it is with the SOF community, however.

Just a reply to the question asked.

Note: unlike the EBR, the M110 is also ambidextrous, and it's buttplace can be modified to extend or come closer in.

Compared to other SDM rifles, the M110 takes top place in modularity.

Soldiers I've spoken with in the 1-161st when they deployed never had any issues at all with it. (even when they took it to the field, the guys using it had said they prefered it over the EBR)

Last edited by Draco771; 08-17-2010 at 20:28.
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