Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > At Ease > The Soapbox

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2017, 14:03   #16
bblhead672
Area Commander
 
bblhead672's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 1,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Don’t buy into our own propaganda. We are no better or worse than any other powerful country that has ever existed. No one is “good” or “evil”; we do things because it it’s a rough world out there and we look after our own interests, and do what’s best for the United States. That anyone believes we are somehow morally better, and we have a RIGHT to do all the stuff we do because we’re “the good guys” just shows you the effectiveness of our indoctrination as citizens. That’s ok. It’s way better to win than to lose. But if you want to know why a lot of countries despise the US government, re-read what I wrote and realize that, while a little flippant, it’s all true. We have no real moral high ground in international relations. We didn’t do any of what we’ve done because it was “the right thing to do”, we did it because we thought it benefited us. When other countries behave the same way we do in any capacity, we freak out. Just think about it critically with the blinders off, you might just see the world in a whole new way.
Scooter: A few years ago I would have strongly disagreed with your take on American history. My blinders came off (somewhat painfully) and I gained the insight to see that the picture is not always as you imagined it was painted.

Rhetoric is great coming from politicians who merely have to confuse the masses enough to get their votes. Not so great when the rhetoric is peeled back to reveal truth.

The last few years I get strange looks when I say I can't blame the Muslims for hating the "Great Satan" as our society tolerates, promotes and celebrates many things that their religion abhors. That acknowledgement though doesn't imply that the radical Islamists methods are in any way acceptable to me or to a (somewhat) civil and modern world.

Some days I feel our country would be a better place if we kept our noses out of other people's business.

Thanks for your insightful and though provoking post.
__________________
“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”

--Thomas Jefferson
bblhead672 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 14:37   #17
Old Dog New Trick
Quiet Professional
 
Old Dog New Trick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Just above the flood plain in Southern Texas
Posts: 3,608
Next time you listen to the Marine Corps Hymn (and while at it, just the definition of "Hymn") and with a different set of lenses (less Rose colored) see an example of Scooter's take on US Military History, or more to the point US 'civilian' Foreign Policy going back hundreds of years to the same places that are evident in the news today.

It's a damn shame that all too often when the victors write history books they show themselves in a favorable light and a supporting bias. Even Hollywood is guilty of promoting that bias.

But, I too, am with my Brothers here that for all the horrible and disgraceful examples in our history the US can pride itself on doing things for the right reasons more often than not, even if the execution or purpose was flawed.
__________________
You only live once; live well. Have no regrets when the end happens!

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (Sir Edmund Burke)
Old Dog New Trick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 14:46   #18
scooter
Quiet Professional
 
scooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by bblhead672 View Post
Scooter: A few years ago I would have strongly disagreed with your take on American history. My blinders came off (somewhat painfully) and I gained the insight to see that the picture is not always as you imagined it was painted.

Rhetoric is great coming from politicians who merely have to confuse the masses enough to get their votes. Not so great when the rhetoric is peeled back to reveal truth.

The last few years I get strange looks when I say I can't blame the Muslims for hating the "Great Satan" as our society tolerates, promotes and celebrates many things that their religion abhors. That acknowledgement though doesn't imply that the radical Islamists methods are in any way acceptable to me or to a (somewhat) civil and modern world.

Some days I feel our country would be a better place if we kept our noses out of other people's business.

Thanks for your insightful and though provoking post.
I am firmly of the belief that relations between countries are driven by self interest, and always have been. While I don't think our actions have been "good", I don't think they have been "evil" either. As for our foreign policy since the end of the Cold War, I don't think it has been "wrong". I just think it has been "dumb". We have done nothing to further our nation's core interests and have floundered around from one failed policy to the next without any real thought to what we were really doing, and why. I am not an isolationist, but I do question a large percent of our current military commitments and believe that many of them are not serving to make the US safer, prosperous, or more influential. Our efforts to spread market democracy in the Middle East have been catastrophically self defeating, and we should leave entirely. We are less safe, not more so. We do not need the oil at this point and can never kill an idea (fundamentalist Islam). We will never run out of people to hit with hellfires from drones. We have made the world more dangerous and ushered in endless human tragedy, with nothing to show for it other than multiplying enemies and a rash of failed states. Our policy needs a radical overhaul in many ways. The current approach is not working.
scooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 14:58   #19
Sohei
Area Commander
 
Sohei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
Next time you listen to the Marine Corps Hymn (and while at it, just the definition of "Hymn") and with a different set of lenses (less Rose colored) see an example of Scooter's take on US Military History, or more to the point US 'civilian' Foreign Policy going back hundreds of years to the same places that are evident in the news today.

It's a damn shame that all too often when the victors write history books they show themselves in a favorable light and a supporting bias. Even Hollywood is guilty of promoting that bias.

But, I too, am with my Brothers here that for all the horrible and disgraceful examples in our history the US can pride itself on doing things for the right reasons more often than not, even if the execution or purpose was flawed.
Hear, hear....

Well said, indeed!
Sohei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 15:18   #20
tonyz
Area Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,792
Scooter, your observations come with maturity and experience.

Unfortunately, a commie college professor could take bits and pieces and spin a tale to less mature and less experienced minds - and denigrate our nation.

Context and perspective are needed to balance out the good with the bad. And, yes, we act in self interest...but not to the gluttonous state that those opposing our way of life might do - if given the same opportunity - think communism or sharia.

The United States (among countless good things) saved the world in WW2. We have not colonized nor in the recent conflicts stolen oil when we easily could have.

On the other hand - we gave the world ALGORE.
__________________
The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil.

Marcus Tullius Cicero
tonyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 15:38   #21
GratefulCitizen
Area Commander
 
GratefulCitizen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Page/Lake Powell, Arizona
Posts: 3,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by bblhead672 View Post

The last few years I get strange looks when I say I can't blame the Muslims for hating the "Great Satan" as our society tolerates, promotes and celebrates many things that their religion abhors. That acknowledgement though doesn't imply that the radical Islamists methods are in any way acceptable to me or to a (somewhat) civil and modern world.
Correctly identifying the illness and correctly identifying the cure are not the same thing.

Decadence and licentiousness in the west are correctly identified as an illness.
Islam is not a cure.
__________________
__________________
Waiting for the perfect moment is a fruitless endeavor.
Make a decision, and then make it the right one through your actions.
"Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clouds will not reap." -Ecclesiastes 11:4 (NIV)
GratefulCitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 16:28   #22
miclo18d
Quiet Professional
 
miclo18d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Occupied Northlandia
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Entire post...
Boy! Those were the good ol days, huh?
__________________
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper
miclo18d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 16:57   #23
scooter
Quiet Professional
 
scooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by miclo18d View Post
Boy! Those were the good ol days, huh?
They sure were!
scooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 17:11   #24
scooter
Quiet Professional
 
scooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyz View Post
Unfortunately, a commie college professor could take bits and pieces and spin a tale to less mature and less experienced minds - and denigrate our nation.
Well, for what its worth they already do.

The left sees America as a worse version of what I portrayed - a greedy, wolf of wall street country that commits crimes and genocide while oppressing minorities at home, all in the name of benefiting rich white men.

The right views America as the global Jesus Christ, nobly sacrificing ourselves to save all mankind when we had to opportunity to stay at home turning water into wine.

These views are both wrong, the answer is, like most things, somewhere in between. But don't kid yourself, when the chips are down, we will take self interest over altruism every time when there is something real on the line. I've seen it, on the ground, in person. In my opinion that is as it should be. I'm all for it. Just don't think that a lot of countries hate us "because of our freedom." That's really simplistic and is refusing to see the world as it is.

Likewise, saying Putin is a bully and a thug for protecting Russia's interests is equally dumb. We've been needlessly antagonizing them for years for no reason, and are now seeing the backlash. Obama tried to "reset" our relationship with Russia and he got cheered. Trump is trying the exact same thing, and being called a traitor (literally) by members of both parties. I think a lot of Trump's instincts are spot on, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
scooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 17:47   #25
tonyz
Area Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,792
Scooter,

What we have been doing has clearly not worked well and your unique insight and on-the-ground experience should stand you in good stead to secure an opportunity to influence change via other methods and in other arenas.

I have little respect for many in higher education today - they have become a politically correct echo chamber and I sincerely wish those well who must now endure it.

Finally, Trump's instinct to communicate with Putin strikes me as much more beneficial than detrimental.

If Trump can survive the deadwood (from both parties) and much of the press - he has a real opportunity to influence real change with regard to not only the subject of this thread but also the future trajectory of this country for years to come.
__________________
The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil.

Marcus Tullius Cicero
tonyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 18:13   #26
PSM
Area Commander
 
PSM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
These views are both wrong, the answer is, like most things, somewhere in between.
"We're not Superman, we're Clark Kent. Fortunately, everyone else is Jimmy Olsen." -- Ranger in documentary about Mogadishu BHD incident.

Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"

"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass

"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager

"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
PSM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 18:55   #27
miclo18d
Quiet Professional
 
miclo18d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Occupied Northlandia
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
But don't kid yourself, when the chips are down, we will take self interest over altruism every time when there is something real on the line.
This^^^^^^^^^

It's human nature. Everyone thinks they can change it with God or with laws. But when it gets down to the bottom rung of Hell, everyone realizes that they are it for themselves and by themselves and they'll do anything to survive. Libs and the religious think they can change nature.

If evolution is the problem, then neither laws nor religion can be the solution. No law can get your dog to not kill that squirrel and God made the dog that way, so you can't tell the dog that killing the squirrel is a sin.
__________________
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper
miclo18d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 22:07   #28
scooter
Quiet Professional
 
scooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by miclo18d View Post
This^^^^^^^^^

It's human nature. Everyone thinks they can change it with God or with laws. But when it gets down to the bottom rung of Hell, everyone realizes that they are it for themselves and by themselves and they'll do anything to survive. Libs and the religious think they can change nature.

If evolution is the problem, then neither laws nor religion can be the solution. No law can get your dog to not kill that squirrel and God made the dog that way, so you can't tell the dog that killing the squirrel is a sin.
This isn't just an individual thing... every major city clearing operation in Iraq erred on the side of thorough urban renewal through firepower. When stomping a city in 2005 an armored unit had a house IED that had some sort of chemical weapon in it slime a squad. They shortly thereafter lost a couple of tanks from underside IEDs, same neighborhood. Everyone pulled back and proceeded to hammer that section of the city with MLRS, artillery, tank main guns, and air dropped ordinance. Did they target discriminate? Sure... they aimed for the buildings. There wasn't a lot of hand wringing over the possibility that the civilians hadn't evacuated fully. We got hit by a VBIED the same day, it was a fun place.
scooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 22:25   #29
frostfire
Area Commander
 
frostfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lone Star
Posts: 2,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post

Don’t buy into our own propaganda. We are no better or worse than any other powerful country that has ever existed. No one is “good” or “evil”; we do things because it it’s a rough world out there and we look after our own interests, and do what’s best for the United States.
Solid post, Sir. Makes it easy to do "business" without taking anything personal, for we would likely do similar (or worse) response in their shoes.

I believe interests do coincide, and there's that happy non-zero-sum medium where what's best for the US also benefits the world (or most of the world).

I must be a true believer in American exceptionalism then. The US of A is not a country or collection of people to me, but an idea. A powerful, yet fragile idea. This idea is very young compared to centuries of past dynasties, empire, kingdoms. Espousing that idea in some parts of the world today would get one killed or worse. I believe in it as it aligns with Judeo-Christian values. I would die for that belief.

....then again, dying for pushing LGBYTXZ agenda for the rest of the world is a concept hard to swallow, no pun intended
https://www.wsj.com/articles/preside...ech-1437820696
__________________
"we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Rom. 5:3-4

"So we can suffer, and in suffering we know who we are" David Goggins

"Aide-toi, Dieu t'aidera " Jehanne, la Pucelle

Der, der Geld verliert, verliert einiges;
Der, der einen Freund verliert, verliert viel mehr;
Der, der das Vertrauen verliert, verliert alles.

INDNJC
frostfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 00:22   #30
scooter
Quiet Professional
 
scooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennesse
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by frostfire View Post
I believe interests do coincide, and there's that happy non-zero-sum medium where what's best for the US also benefits the world (or most of the world).

I must be a true believer in American exceptionalism then. The US of A is not a country or collection of people to me, but an idea. A powerful, yet fragile idea. This idea is very young compared to centuries of past dynasties, empire, kingdoms.
I believe in American Exceptionalism. Our nation is one of the only places where you aren't permanently defined by your parent's social status or where you were born. The son of an African immigrant can become the President of the United States. If you work hard and apply yourself, you can be anything you want. We have, mostly, adopted a system of universal rights that cannot be constrained by the government and view national power as a thing best spread out, in order to protect the people. We have a firmly entrenched view that people have the right to be left alone for the most part, although that is under pressure at the moment. The United States is the most welcoming, open, generally free nation on earth. We are a productive and industrious people that invented the machine gun, telephone, television, airplane, nuclear power, the internet, the smart phone, the automobile... the modern world was literally created and invented by our nation due to the freedom to own and profit from what you invent.

We also did all that other stuff I mentioned...

Of course, so did the French, British, Germans, Belgians, Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Turks, Arabs, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Visigoths, Huns, Mongols.... I could go on. Every nation seeks to spread its culture and organizing system, whether by influence or by force. We can bring a lot of force to bear, so we've been pretty good at it. Japan isn't a market democracy by choice or because we convinced them it was in their best interest. They are a market democracy because we slaughtered all of their young men, crushed their will to resist, occupied their country, and re-wrote their constitution to make them one. The difference between us and the Russians is that while their system makes life hard on everyone, ours is pretty good for all the reasons I named above. A lot of the United State's net benefit to the world has been in doing that. We are similar to a violent sociopath that storms into a shopping mall, kills all the guards, kills anyone who resists, then gives everyone a million dollars. Its been pretty good for the survivors overall, just don't gloss over the first part when thinking about international dynamics in the world today.

Last edited by scooter; 02-08-2017 at 00:29.
scooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:36.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies