decision making process of when to draw - Page 6

Sten · 09-25-2010, 17:24

Adding the wisdom from the costco thread.

If I am ever in the unfortunate situation where I am "in contact with the law", I am not touching my firearm no matter what I hear. I am going to as TS postulated, keeping my fingers interlocked on top of head and going to wait for them to disarm me.

rthorne57 · 09-25-2010, 19:10

OK, way too many responses from this...

First off, I wouldn't openly post on a forum a completely twisted story for no reason. What would I or anyone have to gain from that? I could have easily posted that "I accidently cut him off and he got pissed off and he showed a gun so I defended myself". What I posted was what happened and shouldn't be judged. I was younger and dumber at the time and have never been put in that situation. If I'm 30yards away from you and come charging full speed, are you going to run away? Scream for help? Most likely not. It's easy to say what someone should do in a situation from the outside. I wasn't thinking about them reporting me to the police, let alone a felony charge.

That being said, I spared the details to be brief and to the point; it's just in my nature. I never said "road rage for NO reason", I clearly said "some UNKNOWN reason"...which is another way of saying, I don't know what I did to piss this guy off.

All I recall is that I was following him, playing follow the leader, through the slower traffic on the highway. This "highway" is a 4 lane country road, not to be confused with a major freeway. Once we passed the other cars he started to slow down so I changed lanes to pass him. Upon passing him he yelled something at me, which was inaudible. I looked back at him and he's still yelling, but I ignore it and press on. Maybe he didn't like how close I was following him? That's all I can come up with. He speeds up next to me and starts cussing to get my attention, so I just rolled up my windows. Half a mile later of the same nonesence is where I came to the red light intersection and the rest you know. There is no exit ramp, just a side of the road or attempt to make a u-turn. At the time that we were stopped, my focus was on the door flying open - not waiting to see if a gun could be in his hand which by then it would be too late for me.

I work a mile away from the intersection and at 9am in the morning there's only 2-3 cars in the parking lot on 500 acres of land, which is clearly visible from the road. Doesn't take Columbo to spot my black truck on 20" wheels. The cops come from in-town which means if my truck didn't pass them then I pulled over somewhere. I talked with the police and was honest and told them I withdrew my weapon, and they jumped to the conclusion that draw= point at. They told 2 other cops that showed up, "yeah he admitted it, he's going to jail now". I had to repeatedly say I didn't point it at them but we were going around in circles and they would hardly give me a chance to talk without butting in or another cop threatening me. A third officer showed up and actually took me into custody after I explained to him what happened all over again.

One thing I should have made clear is that the 2 males never had to appear in court, thus never has to testify. My lawyer got a copy of the arrest report and what screwed me is that the 2 arresting officers wrote that I admitted pointing my gun at them and only the 3rd officer (who took my into custody) wrote that I said I didn't. My lawyer, who was an ex DA, laid it all out for me and said "Look, I've won some I should have lost and lost some I should have won. We can go to trial but the report doesn't look good and it matches what the 2 "victims" said". He said he would talk with the DA to get it reduced because after weighing my options I could easily lose in the trial which means 2 years in federal prison with Lord knows how much in fines and community service hours. The thing that scared me the most was having the felony conviction on my record. Goodbye decent jobs, goodbye apartments, goodbye school, and couldn't ever think about a career in the military; I'm screwed for life. I swallowed my pride, plead guilty and took the lesser charge.

@ Noquarter - the constables coming running in like they were in a GD shoot house playing wannabe SWAT. Stick up for them if you want; they over reacted.

I must have told this story 15 times to close friends and family, the police, lawer, investigator, and recruiter and honestly wish I could have reacted different, but the fact is I didn't. It was a stupid mistake and now I'm paying for it. I think about it all the time and I missed out on too many opportunities because of my misdemeanor. Frankly, I don't need to be judged or labeled, I just wanted to share that story. I don't care if you all can't make sense of it.

nmap · 09-25-2010, 20:37

Rthorne57, please understand that I'm not in any way criticizing - I am just asking to learn, since one never knows when one might find oneself in similar circumstances.

Why did you go to work? In hindsight, if you had known then what you know now, would you have avoided pulling into your workplace? What else might you have done differently?

Decoy_Octopus · 10-09-2010, 00:44

fraggo

blue02hd · 10-09-2010, 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by rthorne57

OK, way too many responses from this...

What I posted was what happened and shouldn't be judged,,,,,

Frankly, I don't need to be judged or labeled, I just wanted to share that story. I don't care if you all can't make sense of it.

Your last response is forming a pattern, and it is well reflective of you and your mindset. You are in the company of some learned and experienced men. I agree, you are now more experienced for your story, and now criminal record, but you still are failing to forecast 2nd and 3rd order effects of your decisions.

You already demonstrated that you were not mature enough to carry a weapon, now it seems now you are demonstrating that you're not mature enough to listen to experienced advice. I am wondering what exactly is the intent of your post now?

We call it Big Boy Rules on the Teams. You are ultimately 100% responsible for your own actions, and are expected to man up when you make a mistake. Big Boys do not blame other drivers, Rookie Cops, or cheap assed lazy lawyers.

I guess perhaps THAT'S the morale of your story?

Did you consider the possibility that the other driver may have been armed as well? A felony charge may have been a gift and you don't even realize it.

99meters · 10-09-2010, 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by nmap

What else might you have done differently?

If you don't have a realy good understanding of the laws concerning "your situation", don't talk to the cops without a lawyer.

akv · 10-09-2010, 07:41

Quote:

Blue02hd- Entire Post

stoic wisdom

Quote:

Originally Posted by 99meters

If you don't have a realy good understanding of the laws concerning "your situation", don't talk to the cops without a lawyer.

Sir, this seems common sense advice, but when regarding this question I've also heard conflicting advice from LEO? Specifically experienced LEO have told me when responding to say a home defense shooting, their perception is folks who immediately start lawyering up from the get go generally have something to hide. Obviously the truth matters, but so does the perception of the responding LEO? Specifically every cop in America is swamped with more cases than he should be, there will of course be an investigation, but the officers perception of what occurred and the way he presents the case plays no small part in determining which cases go to grand jury?

**The Reaper** · 10-09-2010, 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by akv

stoic wisdom

Sir, this seems common sense advice, but when regarding this question I've also heard conflicting advice from LEO? Specifically experienced LEO have told me when responding to say a home defense shooting, their perception is folks who immediately start lawyering up from the get go generally have something to hide. Obviously the truth matters, but so does the perception of the responding LEO? Specifically every cop in America is swamped with more cases than he should be, there will of course be an investigation, but the officers perception of what occurred and the way he presents the case plays no small part in determining which cases go to grand jury?

The fact that you "lawyered up" cannot be used against you in court.

Your own statements can, and probably will, if they will hurt your case.

Not cop bashing here, but things can go seriously askew, even when you have done nothing wrong and are trying to help, much less after you have killed another human being and are standing there in front of the cops with a smoking gun in your hands, still high on adrenaline and they are asking for a statement. Most LEOs I know who have been involved in shootings "lawyer up" as well before making any statements themselves. Several of them have cited the stress of the event and asked for some time (several hours to a day or more) before making any statements, and then only with the union lawyer or their own present.

Not saying we should adopt the "no snitches" perspective of the 'hood. I want to help the police solve their case as well. I just don't want to go to jail for my efforts. And starting off with a gun and a wounded or dead adversary is thin ice to begin with.

I suggest that all members of this board take a little time and watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

And the rebuttal argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQ...eature=related

TR

dr. mabuse · 10-09-2010, 11:24

Exactly what TR said plus.

When the police arrive and you're in shock and rattled, there is a real threat that you may confuse what your emotional reality is vs what really happened. You can confuse the two at that critical moment and what you know now is not what you experienced then.

Explain to the officers that you'll answer all their questions with your attorney present but are nauseated/sick/dizzy right now. Remember, once you say something to them and it may make you look bad, they can't hand it back or disregard it.

Never seen "lawerying up" be a bad thing for an innocent victim in Dallas County. Have seen "not lawyering up" be a very bad thing for an innocent victim.

Stay safe.

Axe · 10-09-2010, 11:51

The LAST time in the world you want to make the most important statement you will probably ever make in your life (about a shooting) is immediately following what is likely the most traumatic event of your life when you are in your most vulnerable state of mind.

The only person you should be telling the story to following any serious event like a shooting is your attorney.

**Team Sergeant** · 10-09-2010, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axe

The LAST time in the world you want to make the most important statement you will probably ever make in your life (about a shooting) is immediately following what is likely the most traumatic event of your life when you are in your most vulnerable state of mind.

The only person you should be telling the story to following any serious event like a shooting is your attorney.

Only if I were to miss.

Axe · 10-09-2010, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Only if I were to miss.

LMAO!

You and the members of PS.com help make up the small percentage of the population to whom my comment wouldn't apply as written, TS.