decision making process of when to draw

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Most times these things are done as a reaction. So, thinking of all the possible ramifications may not be first priority of thought. Some will act , some will not. Tsun Tsu probably would not as he requires the thinking analysis.
Laws are not always based on common sense but more than likely they are. In these cases, Action Speaks, Words don't.
Old SF quote: Better to beg forgiveness than ask premission. Blitzzz

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by booker

A person has NO RIGHT TO USE DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his personal property. This applies where you are only defending your property and NOT defending yourself or your family. (example, you CANNOT shoot someone in the back while they are running across your yard away from you with your TV) A person has NO RIGHT TO THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his property. (This is a recent change in Virginia law). (Example, it is a crime to brandish a firearm to run someone off who is breaking into your unoccupied car in a parking lot)..."

This is disturbing. I am in a situation that may call for the brandishing of a firearm to repel future break-ins that my neighbors and I have had recently. Last night my neighbors car was ransacked, last Wednesday my girlfriends coat was stolen from her car, and a couple weeks ago the police were called here about a suspicious person looking into the windows of our cars late at night by my neighbor. My neighbor and I are the only tenants here. We are above a martial arts studio, and there is an auto repair place next to us. Maryland is similar with it's laws regarding defense of property. The police are about 3-5 minutes out, which isn't bad, but I have no windows overlooking the lot to see if anyone is being suspicious before I walk down the steps. The police said just to call them, but that has been done a couple times already to no avail. What would be a good COA? The law-logic says to keep calling the police. The common sense part of me says to carry something with me besides a cell phone down to my car just in case I'm surprised by a crack addict. Any advice is greatly appreciated. BTW, this country is going to hell in a hand cart.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by BryanK

This is disturbing. I am in a situation that may call for the brandishing of a firearm to repel future break-ins that my neighbors and I have had recently. Last night my neighbors car was ransacked, last Wednesday my girlfriends coat was stolen from her car, and a couple weeks ago the police were called here about a suspicious person looking into the windows of our cars late at night by my neighbor. My neighbor and I are the only tenants here. We are above a martial arts studio, and there is an auto repair place next to us. Maryland is similar with it's laws regarding defense of property. The police are about 3-5 minutes out, which isn't bad, but I have no windows overlooking the lot to see if anyone is being suspicious before I walk down the steps. The police said just to call them, but that has been done a couple times already to no avail. What would be a good COA? The law-logic says to keep calling the police. The common sense part of me says to carry something with me besides a cell phone down to my car just in case I'm surprised by a crack addict. Any advice is greatly appreciated. BTW, this country is going to hell in a hand cart.

Move out.

TR

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Move out.

TR

I agree. The problem is, I'm locked into a lease that does not expire until Aug 2010. I have not brought up the issue with the landlord yet however. I will discuss this with him tomorrow. If I hit the mega millions, I will most assuredly move out with a sense of urgency

[ZonieDiver]

BTW, this country is going to hell in a hand cart.

From what I am experiencing - it is a BIG fricking hand cart, and it is moving very fast!

Originally Posted by BryanK

I agree. The problem is, I'm locked into a lease that does not expire until Aug 2010. I have not brought up the issue with the landlord yet however. I will discuss this with him tomorrow. If I hit the mega millions, I will most assuredly move out with a sense of urgency

you can get a baby monitor... cheap put it outback and turn it on just before you leave to go out and you can see the cars.

purchase your own motion dector lights.. a couple are cheap and can be run on batteries if necessary.

A camera that can be picked up by your computer same deal.

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by armymom1228

you can get a baby monitor... cheap put it outback and turn it on just before you leave to go out and you can see the cars.

purchase your own motion dector lights.. a couple are cheap and can be run on batteries if necessary.

A camera that can be picked up by your computer same deal.

Thank you for the ideas armymom. I saw a few things at radio shack that could help with the surveillance part. The issue that remains is if one of these misguided souls decides what he wants could be in the apartment.

[Tourist]

Guns and bad guys. You folks are worrying me for when I move to Florida in a couple of months........kidding.

I was a UK LEO for a while and here because the average cop is not armed you learn to deal with situations by reading the situation and using your mouth to de-escalate situations. The law, as it is written, is in most cases stoopid allowing much too much leeway to the bad guys. We have a guy here in the UK who was only last week sentenced to prison time for defending himself. This event on top of others has caused a mild public outrage and is resulting in a rewriting of the law on personal defence.

I was visiting Tampa a few years back and went out with a Tampa PD drugs unit and did some high risk warrants on dealers. One of the guys asked me if I had a gun on me, I told him "No I'm not allowed". He then told me he would not even go to the supermarket without a gun. I commented that what is the likelihood of something happening to me during my visit........yeah, right.

A couple of days later the wife and I are walking out of Walmart, I stop to pick up a newspaper and she is about 30 - 40yards ahead of me. In a relatively quiet carpark I ping a couple of scrotes moving in towards her from different directions. Now, you get the immediate adrenaline rush and you run the situation thru about 15 different permutations. So, I speeded up, not a run as I did'not want to attract attention, pulled my credentials with my left hand and put my right hand in a 'I have a hand on a pistol position'. The scrotes were about 5 yards from my good lady and I was around 10 yards from them. I then called out "Hey guys, I don't think the lady can help you". They turned looked at my credentials and my other hand and ran off to their car. I got the registration and passed on the details to the local sheriff. Apparently they had come down to the sunshine state from Detroit where the owner of the vehicle also had a couple of outstanding warrants.

[Stingray]

Story published in Topeka Capital Journal Online

By Mike Hall
Created December 21, 2009 at 5:37pm

Updated December 22, 2009 at 12:14am
For the first time, liquor store owner Cliff Cormier has said publicly he was the one who shot two would-be robbers in his store on Oct. 19.

And Shawnee County District Attorney Chad Taylor said Monday he is drafting a "clearance letter" to send to the Topeka Police Department saying no charges would be filed in connection with the shootings.

On Oct. 19, Rickie Loyd, 21, was shot and killed by someone inside Cormier Liquor, 2611 S.E. California, during a robbery attempt.

Until Monday nobody associated with the incident — not Clff or Janice Cormier, not law enforcement — would say who fired the shots.

Police said Cliff and Janice Cormier were present at the time of the robbery, as well as several customers.

Police say Loyd was attempting to rob the store. Another man with Loyd during the robbery attempt was shot in the shoulder but fled on foot. Three weeks later, Anthony Marshall III, 16, was arrested and charged in the robbery.

On Monday when Cliff Cormier was asked again who fired the shots, he first said he had no intention of ever saying. But then when his wife and business partner Janice said "Go ahead and tell him," Cliff said "I did."

He said he never had any thought any charges would be filed against him. He said he was assured by law enforcement people all along it was a clear case of self-defense.

When asked if he thought the incident would serve as a lesson to anyone else thinking of robbing a store, he said, "There was a lesson to be learned, but it should have been learned a long time ago."

He said he had been told the two men alleged to have been involved in the robbery of his store were believed responsible for a number of recent robberies in the city.

Taylor said he had dictated the clearance letter to the TPD and hoped to have it sent there this week.

Topeka Police Chief Ron Miller said no one in his department was involved in the decision on whether charges should be filed. He said it is his department's job to investigate the circumstances and submit the facts to the DA to decide whether any charges should be filed.

[lindy]

You're in downtown DC during daylight hours and you happen to stumble upon a large gathering of people at the intersection of 14th & U. You don't Twitter so you're actually clueless as to why they are there. Granted, large gathering in DC...IMHO, you should be at condition yellow.

You notice a H2 gets pelted by a few snowballs. Big whoop. H2 stops and driver exits vehicle with a pistol in his hand. A clearly agitated man wearing normal clothes is approaching you with weapon drawn but pointed at the ground.

What would you do?

Do you wait for him to raise the weapon at you or other person or has he ALREADY demonstrated hostile intent?

Originally Posted by lindy

You're in downtown DC during daylight hours and you happen to stumble upon a large gathering of people at the intersection of 14th & U. You don't Twitter so you're actually clueless as to why they are there. Granted, large gathering in DC...IMHO, you should be at condition yellow.

You notice a H2 gets pelted by a few snowballs. Big whoop. H2 stops and driver exits vehicle with a pistol in his hand. A clearly agitated man wearing normal clothes is approaching you with weapon drawn but pointed at the ground.

What would you do?

Do you wait for him to raise the weapon at you or other person or has he ALREADY demonstrated hostile intent?

Other than it would be illegal for me to carry in DC, I'd be backing away. However, if I become "in fear of my life," I hope I have what it takes to remove that fear by whatever means at hand including inflicting lethal harm. I may be a CCW instructor, but I have no idea whether I have the mental ability to perform.

[Sten]

Originally Posted by lindy

You're in downtown DC during daylight hours and you happen to stumble upon a large gathering of people at the intersection of 14th & U. You don't Twitter so you're actually clueless as to why they are there. Granted, large gathering in DC...IMHO, you should be at condition yellow.

You notice a H2 gets pelted by a few snowballs. Big whoop. H2 stops and driver exits vehicle with a pistol in his hand. A clearly agitated man wearing normal clothes is approaching you with weapon drawn but pointed at the ground.

What would you do?

Do you wait for him to raise the weapon at you or other person or has he ALREADY demonstrated hostile intent?

Approaching me or walking in my direction?

Who is to say he is not some form of Law.

In DC I have no carry rights and would not illegally carry so I am 100% firearm free. If I am alone (no kid or wife) I would just run like hell, if he starts shooting I am just another uninsured corpse on the 9:00 news. Add my wife and kid to the picture I send them running like hell and I get ready to make it a him or me deal.

[The Reaper]

Is anyone here informed as to the hiring standards of the DC Metro Police Department and their generally lax standards for officers, to include permissable arrest records?

TR

[Defender968]

Ok couple of things, crowd if full of idiots who threw snow balls at a moving vehicle which could be dangerous (i.e. broken windshield), were I the driver I'd be pissed too, however I would not have drawn a weapon, were they throwing bricks or flaming bottles, ok, snowballs, not so much.

Now if you watch the complete video the responding uniformed officer has his gun drawn and only holsters it once he realizes the H2 driver is an off duty LEO. Which leads me to believe the call came in as an irate driver waving a gun, the H2 Driver does have a radio and may be calling in his presence however the responding uniformed officer's initial actions lead me to believe the information was either not up channeled or their dispatch is slow, I don't know if this guy identified himself, I didn't see a badge in the video, I did see a radio, either way the gun was unnecessary given the facts that I know currently, that doesn't mean there isn't more too it but from what I've read his H2 got hit with snow balls, he got out pissed and gun in hand, I'll be looking for the police report (if one was generated to see if there was more too it). Also given the crowds actions it would not appear to me they were terribly violent from what I saw, so again the gun was not warranted

Now if I happen to be there when this goes down and he is walking towards me and hasn't identified himself as LE, I'm going to first be looking for some sort of cover and moving towards said cover and away from the threat while thinking about drawing at the appropriate time, specifically because he has his gun out already, he is in a tactically superior position, the best thing would be to try not give away the element of surpise or to present yourself as a threat until you can gain the upper hand... specifically I'd be trying to wait for his attention to be divided/off me, if he's focused on me I'd try to deescalate verbally....however

If/when I had an appropriate opportunity and if I was in fear of my life or for the lives of others (which I think may have been appropriate in this situation) I'd likely have drawn my weapon and loudly issue verbal commands to drop the weapon while I was aimed center mass, if he raises his, he gets dropped... period.

There are many lessons here, first of which if you're going to step out and act like Billy Bad Ass while off duty, out of uniform, and driving your POV you better identify yourself and have credentials in hand (and you shouldn't have a gun out unless there's a specific threat, which a snow ball is not IMHO), otherwise you look like just another pissed off idiot with a gun in hand and as such are a threat subject to neutralization by an on duty LEO who doesn't know you, an off duty LEO who doesn't know you, or a sheepdog who happens to be in the mix.

Second you need to let dispatch/control know you are there, what you are wearing and what you intentions are, this can all be done very quickly, especially if they are still using codes.

Bottom line IMO if there was nothing else going on besides a snow ball fight this LEO was out of line to have gun drawn, and further needlessly risked his life and the lives of the public by having his weapon un-holstered. If there was a reason to intervene as an LEO he should have identified himself as LEO, with credentials i.e. badge clearly visible, if the situation was bad enough to require a fire arm be drawn I'd have radioed/called dispatch to let them know my location, the situation, and most importantly my description, that way I'm not mistaken for a threat, it would appear that none of that happened here. At least looking at the video.

DISCLAIMER!!!!! This could have gone very badly, many innocent bystanders around, had shots been fired many innocents could have been hurt/killed, if you're not sure how to handle something like this but happen to have a CCW be very careful, you could get yourself and the public killed. Even as a prior LEO this whole thing makes me very uneasy.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Is anyone here informed as to the hiring standards of the DC Metro Police Department and their generally lax standards for officers, to include permissable arrest records?

TR

Oh come on, the next thing you're going to say is that the former Mayor of Washington D.C., (the captial of the United States of America), is a crack addict and a convicted felon!!!