06-29-2006, 19:37
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#46
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
Posts: 203
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Docs - any risk associated with the use of flea collars?
If I remember this correctly, one of the theories on Gulf War Syndrome was the combination of DEET from insect repellent and Dursban from Flea and Tick collars combining to cause neurotoxicity & brain damage.
Karl
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Karl.Masters is offline
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06-29-2006, 20:42
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#47
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl.Masters
Docs - any risk associated with the use of flea collars?
If I remember this correctly, one of the theories on Gulf War Syndrome was the combination of DEET from insect repellent and Dursban from Flea and Tick collars combining to cause neurotoxicity & brain damage.
Karl
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Sir,
While there is still stonewalling by the federal government on this issue, the vaccine adjuvant squalene is considered to be the cause of Gulf War Syndrome (GWS), at least in my world. An adjuvant is a chemical added to a (usually weak) vaccine in order to make it more effective. It is presumed that squalene was added to the anthrax vaccine used in the DOD’s Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program (AVIP).
There is much pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth over adding aduvants to the current crop of H5N1 vaccines. GWS is a cautionary tale which is frequently discussed.
Squalene is present in some proprietary adjuvants such as MF59 made by Chiron. Animal studies show squalene to be problematic and associated with autoimmune and neuro-muscular dysfunctions. It is not approved for use in the US.
Squalene antibodies (ASA) were discovered by researchers at Tulane university in veterans with GWS. This is significant because:
Squalene antibodies are not present in normal people, but present in 95% of GWS patients tested
The level of ASA antibodies corresponds with severity of GWS symptoms
Only veterans who were in the DOD’s Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program AVIP tested positive
AVIP personnel who had GWS-like illnesses but not deployed also tested positive
There is a higher than normal incidence of autoimmune disorders in GWS, particularly striking being ones that are extremely rare in men, such as lupus
To date this test remains a ‘marker’ for GWS
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mugwump is offline
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06-30-2006, 17:17
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#48
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
Posts: 203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mugwump
While there is still stonewalling by the federal government on this issue, the vaccine adjuvant squalene is considered to be the cause of Gulf War Syndrome (GWS), at least in my world. An adjuvant is a chemical added to a (usually weak) vaccine in order to make it more effective. It is presumed that squalene was added to the anthrax vaccine used in the DOD’s Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program (AVIP).
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Mugwump,
Thanks for the information. The squalene/GWS connection is new to me. Some of the congressional testimony I've read through suggested multiple causes that included AVIP, combinations of organo-phosphates, effects of PB, chemical weapons exposure, DU effects, and even oil well fires. That's likely ancient history and it sounds like you have done some detailed research. It is interesting to know that such a high correlation of GWS to squalene exists. Is there a paper or a study that you can recommend to read more?
But back to Flea & Tick collars, which was also an early "marker" for GWS in some of Dr. Robert Haley's GWS research, think at UT.
What I'm interested in understanding is if I can kill brains cells if I combine DEET with the Flea Collars. I live way out in the sticks and now only use DEET and Sulphur, I have yet to check out the Flea Collar techinique.
I don't want to induce any more dain brammage than I already have
Thanks-
Karl
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Karl.Masters is offline
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06-30-2006, 18:12
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#49
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,403
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Karl,
This site has links to squalene research and congressional testimony.
I'm sure you're right that GWS has complex causes. Squalene antibodies are easily identified, which has made them something of a smoking gun. Because the H5N1 vaccines we are developing have 'disappointing serological response' (translation, they're crap) adjuvants are being used. The squalene/GWS link is in the front of my mind.
All I know about flea collars is that a CSM in A'stan asked me to stop sending them in care packages in 2004. He said they'd gotten a directive that they were not good to go.
mugwump
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mugwump is offline
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06-30-2006, 18:34
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#50
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
Posts: 203
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Mugwump,
Thanks for the link, I appreciate the leads for further reading on the GWS research. Learning that "better living through chemistry" not always the case.
Interesting about the reply you got from the CSM on the flea collars. Also noted earlier in the thread that TR and W-M both say avoid skin contact/put the collar in your pocket. That's three bad bongos data points. Good enough for me, I'll keep these things on the dogs.
Thanks-
Karl
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Karl.Masters is offline
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07-01-2006, 10:14
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#51
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SF Candidate
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Eglin Main
Posts: 144
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Can't vouch for how effective this is versus good ol DEET, but and old SOG friend of mine said they used to take any of the plants in the milkweed family and rub the excretions on their clothes, hands, neck, etc. Suppossed to keep the bugs away as it is toxic to them and also helps to cover your body's scent. Worth a try I guess...
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SRT31B is offline
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07-06-2006, 21:28
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#52
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Asset
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Morgantown, WV
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
Guys -
there is one 'jungle remedy' that was completely bypassed here. COL M, CPT might be able to back me up, but it worked for me in the lands of Lyme (TX, MA, NC, GA, NY, NJ, PA) - works for most bugs - chiggers, ticks, mosquitoes, flies.
match heads - po tt bid (for nonmedics - by mouth 2 tabs twice a day) takes 2 days to load the phosphorus and sulfur into the sweat, no harmful effects, no smell, and matches (I hope) still come in MREs.
I learned this trick from an SF CSM who swore by it - I used it and still swear by it.
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Man that's crazy. So you're supposed to start eating match heads 2 days before you go out? And how long does it last?
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mconrad is offline
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07-06-2006, 21:59
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#53
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In transit somewhere
Posts: 4,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mconrad
Man that's crazy. So you're supposed to start eating match heads 2 days before you go out? And how long does it last?
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Lasts for about 2 days after you stop eating the match heads - 2 in the morning, 2 in the evening.
__________________
In the business of war, there is no invariable stategic advantage (shih) which can be relied upon at all times.
Sun-Tzu, "The Art of Warfare"
Hearing, I forget. Seeing, I remember. Writing (doing), I understand. Chinese Proverb
Too many people are looking for a magic bullet. As always, shot placement is the key. ~TR
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x SF med is offline
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07-06-2006, 22:42
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#54
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Asset
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Morgantown, WV
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
Lasts for about 2 days after you stop eating the match heads - 2 in the morning, 2 in the evening.
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Sounded more like an eating disorder at first. Thanks for the info, x_sf_med.
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07-06-2006, 22:57
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#55
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 533
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Wow, tics on the nads?
I am living a sheltered life.
But if I wasn't I would just read all of the multiple 18D posts and follow the advice.
This subject is making me all.........itchy.
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JMI is offline
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07-07-2006, 07:51
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#56
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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I would mention, in the interest of health and safety, that safety match heads contain a number of chemicals, chiefly antimony sulfide and potassium chlorate.
If you want more sulfur in your diet, it is probably healthier to just buy some and take a little in capsules or something than to eat match heads. Me? I'll just stick with the Chig-Away which is a lotion containing sulfur.
BTW, the strike anywhere matches are even more dangerous due to the phosphorus, and excessive contact can lead to serious medical problems (see "Phossy Jaw"), including death.
Just my .02.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-07-2006, 08:43
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#57
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In transit somewhere
Posts: 4,044
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TR,
That's why just 2 paper matchheads twice a day - systemic sulfur is loaded, and the phosphorus level is controlled, but elevated to a level unappetizing for creepy crawlies, and normally not toxic for humans - as with any 'jungle' medicine - if you feel any effects - stop. I've had no ill effects, but that's not to say another's body chemistry isn't different enough to not tolerate this prophylaxis.
Whatever you are comfortable with, use - but always buddy check on a regular basis, nothing is 100%.
__________________
In the business of war, there is no invariable stategic advantage (shih) which can be relied upon at all times.
Sun-Tzu, "The Art of Warfare"
Hearing, I forget. Seeing, I remember. Writing (doing), I understand. Chinese Proverb
Too many people are looking for a magic bullet. As always, shot placement is the key. ~TR
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x SF med is offline
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07-07-2006, 08:46
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#58
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
TR,
That's why just 2 paper matchheads twice a day - systemic sulfur is loaded, and the phosphorus level is controlled, but elevated to a level unappetizing for creepy crawlies, and normally not toxic for humans - as with any 'jungle' medicine - if you feel any effects - stop. I've had no ill effects, but that's not to say another's body chemistry isn't different enough to not tolerate this prophylaxis.
Whatever you are comfortable with, use - but always buddy check on a regular basis, nothing is 100%.
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There is no phosphourus in a paper match. The phosphorus is in the striker (along with powdered glass), and is toxic.
Agreed on the buddy check. We were doing IADs in the Mata Mile area one day and in less than 2 hours, I picked up over 80 ticks of assorted sizes.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-19-2006, 22:03
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#59
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chow Hall
Posts: 166
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We had a couple match munchers at Phase II, but I could never get into it. I just used the type of DEET that corrodes your watch. It served two purposes... it kept the bugs off and the burning skin helped keep me awake.
__________________
A man's reach should exceed his grasp.
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FearMonkey is offline
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05-18-2010, 12:33
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#60
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 353
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Thanks for the professional insight. Ticks are rampant in the north east and this is some info gathered for off-duty time in the woods.
This page gives some prevention tips. It claims that Permanone is much more effective on ticks than DEET.
Repel Permanone Clothing & Gear Insect Repellent was recommended:
"This odorless insecticide is designed to protected clothing, shoes, tents and other gear (not to be used on skin) from ticks and mosquitoes. Spray any item, let dry and Permanone will provide up to two weeks of protection (while hanging outside to avoid inhalation of vapors). Permanone will bind to the fabric being treated and actually kills insects that come in contact with it. Contains 0.5% Permethin."
Some people tuck their pant cuffs into their socks and even use duct tape to secure them. I’m thinking Under Armour or 5.11 Tactical socks would be best. There is also a product called Tick Gators that serves this function.
I tuck in my shirt (long sleeved are best), wear a hat and throw them in the washer after if possible. No substitute for checking your hide.
Here is a training guide for Public Health Pest Management that covers ticks.
This last paper did bring up possible health risks of Permanone –I’m not trying to give advice to our bravest about Lyme disease prevention.
Health Effects of Permethrin-Impregnated Army Battle-Dress Uniforms (1994)
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