Female Soldiers Sue U.S. in Challenge to Combat Limits - Page 5

twistedsquid · 05-27-2012, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

We do the same things for our brothers in arms. If a team mate is injured we take up the extra luggage. Actually happens all the time. I have carried two rucks for a few days while another SF soldier was injured.

And it would not matter if she was a supply clerk or a shooter, if she (or he) is wearing my uniform I would fight to the death for either of them. Not to ensure they "stayed alive" but because they are American soldiers.

patriotic sentiment TS...the israeli experiment proved that males ceased to press the battle and spent an inordinate amount of time caring for injured female combatant troops....these were line units and not SF but is it not intuitive for a strong male to care for a "weaker" female..."weaker" used generically here to denote a lower physical standard only...drop them in as highly trained all female sniper teams and extract them when mission accomplished...

fasteddie565 · 05-27-2012, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

We do the same things for our brothers in arms. If a team mate is injured we take up the extra luggage. Actually happens all the time. I have carried two rucks for a few days while another SF soldier was injured.

And it would not matter if she was a supply clerk or a shooter, if she (or he) is wearing my uniform I would fight to the death for either of them. Not to ensure they "stayed alive" but because they are American soldiers.

I had some thoughts along the same line, every team has a weak link, someone that the rest of the team has to fill in around. Sometimes that guy is not the same person on every mission, sometimes he is.

As far as getting old, shit, how many paunchy E8's / CW4's have fallen into the same trap? And as far as the officer corps in SF, well it seems like tape tests are out the window for field grades and GO's. If they stayed on a team forever, they would fall prey to it as well.

I think its wrong to let them into RS, Infantry etc, but the dynamics orion5 described already exist.

greenberetTFS · 05-27-2012, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedsquid

great article...i also researched the israeli experiment with female combat troops...a complete failure...but the sniper question still exists in my mind...statistically better shots than males...can it work? probaly not in the us military ive concluded despite successes in foreign armies...

You better pray that you don't want Longrange 1947 to see this.........

Big Teddy

twistedsquid · 05-27-2012, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenberetTFS

You better pray that you don't want LG 1947 to see this.........

Big Teddy

o shit...

greenberetTFS · 05-27-2012, 17:02

Can they handle this?..........

Big Teddy

Surgicalcric · 05-27-2012, 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedsquid

a female...

You are basing your entire argument on an anomaly in history - one woman. Pretty weak if ya ask me.

twistedsquid · 05-27-2012, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surgicalcric

You are basing your entire argument on an anomaly in history - one woman. Pretty weak if ya ask me.

point noted with great respect....50 women in theater?

Paragrouper · 05-27-2012, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedsquid

...statistically better shots than males...

I have heard this statement numerous times, but never saw a study that would confirm it. I did a search and there isn't much out there. Perhaps you have some material you can share?

abc_123 · 05-27-2012, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedsquid

a female sits at number 5 of the top ten in history...they have the capability...just sayin...

Who cares?

The fact that women can serve as soldiers as a last resort, when a society or country is threatened with destruction is not in question. In antiquity, units of women were a psychological weapon and largely served to slaughter the enemy wounded or to be used against a broken enemy, like cavalry...because thrown into the meat-grinder of hand to hand combat against an enemy with his formation intact they themselves would have been slaughtered.

Great, the US Military has women serving. Militarily are we better off? We don't need women to fill out the ranks, so, now that we have women serving are we a better fighting force? More focused?

Surgicalcric · 05-27-2012, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedsquid

point noted with great respect....50 women in theater?

OK so now 50 women, 50 out of the some 12 million men that purportedly served in the Red Army in WWII.

Your case isnt getting any stronger.

**PRB** · 05-27-2012, 20:42

[QUOTE=Surgicalcric;450695]OK so now 50 women, 50 out of the some 12 million men that purportedly served in the Red Army in WWII.

The Soviet example is hard to apply to our circumstance. Total war on your own soil...yeah, everyone able to the front. here is your rifle and 5 rounds.
They were not concerned about their own casualties, at all, or if they even had a fighting chance....I'd offer the penal Bn's that fired on their own retreating soldiers as an example.....
Females are better shots? Not in my experience. They can be as good, if endowed with good eyesight and muscle control.
They can do better initially because they bring no ego/prior bad teaching to the table and will do exactly as you say...guys have to 'do it my way' etc until you prove them wrong.
Women can kill but not on an equal basis if the playing field is level/honest.

longrange1947 · 05-28-2012, 10:54

Thoughts on the passing scene.

1. Yes, women are better shots than men. Basic fact and why for years the men and women competed at different comps. If you don't believe me then you need to check out who has been wining a lot of the long range comps, a mom and her two daughters.

2. What does this have to do with sniping? Not a damned thing, sorry again. Sniping is a mental and physical act that requires it all to be tuned. Most females are tuned mentally for being maternal. That is the reason why the top female Soviet sniper referred to her targets as sticks. It depersonalized the act, "I broke two sticks today".

3. Soviets used females as snipers and bomber pilots (The Night Witches). Not altogether successful with it. Females were not used in the front line infantry as they cannot handle the strength requirements of moving fast with weapon and basic load over and extended period. The US setting up separate physical requirements for men and women negate reality of the situation and these same women will bitch, (actually won't go only want to stir up shit) if they have to do the same push ups, sit ups etc.

4. The Israelis' experiment was due to the need of bodies and they were used mainly as front line commo and not front line grunts. Again a failure due to the male gene of species survival in which the female is protected to reproduce. Not sexist, just facts and proven over and over. The present Israeli sniper course is taught mainly by women for their ability to shoot and teach. Most are rated teachers. The Field Craft and tactics portion is all male though.

5. Comparing the US with Soviet Union under all out war and needing bodies or the the same with Israel is asking for screwed up results. Apples and Oranges. This is a decision making process based on political BS and not on sound stats.

6. Sorry, keep the women out of the front line infantry units. It is not a good match and Ranger is really asking for trouble. This is PC gone berserk and damned dangerous. Yes, as TS pointed out, we take care of our own, but we do not try to protect our own, we protect the mission and putting females into the mix is a mission problem.

7. I have worked with females under a number of situations, I know how this works out and WILL play out.

8. MOO.

9. Not what you expected was it Teddy?

twistedsquid · 05-28-2012, 19:22

thanks for the response longrange1947...my position is based largely on the observations and writings of a former marine corps and army sniper named "dolan"...his article and study posted on the blog "ten oclock scholar/female marksmen" suggests the same as youve noted , however he argues for more female sniper training...interesting that the air force classifies snipers as security forces and not infantry so the position is open to women...nancy tompkins-gallagher and her 2 teenage daughters are the women youve mentioned and have consistently beaten the top military and law enforcement snipers in the country....my position also accepts that regardless of the "total war environment" of WW2 females can be a significant asset in defense...the soviets employed nearly 2000 female snipers of which 500 survived the war....no they cant hump the ruck or do the PT...but they can kill the enemy with extreme prejudice when needed...

Dusty · 05-28-2012, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Sorry, keep the women out of the front line infantry units. It is not a good match and Ranger is really asking for trouble. This is PC gone berserk and damned dangerous. Yes, as TS pointed out, we take care of our own, but we do not try to protect our own, we protect the mission and putting females into the mix is a mission problem.

Agreed. Too bad they gotta learn the hard way, as usual.

longrange1947 · 05-28-2012, 19:56

In the late 80s I help train the first female Air Force snipers that were assigned to the Security Force at Pope AFB. They could out shoot their brothers but were not mentally prepared for the task at hand. Don't get me wrong, a bunch of males are not mentally prepared for the task at hand, and that includes combat vets. It is just that the vast majority of females are not, as opposed to a small minority of males.

Flying a jet fighter/bomber and releasing a load of TNT is not the same as seeing your target on a personal level while gazing through the crystal ball on top of your rifle. that very problem is the reason why up to 25% of trained snipers, who did not volunteer for the job, will be a no shot or one shot sniper. And again that includes combat vets.

Just because someone can shoot does not mean they can be a sniper. Simple fact. Just because someone has been I combat does not mean they can function as a sniper, simple fact. I warned the females and their leadership of the potential problems they will face. It was not politically expedient to pay attention to the dangers. They are still used and I still see the potential for disaster if and when one fails to shoot. Look at what happened in Germany with the Munich debacle over all of those men that failed to shoot with the Israeli athletes in danger and now dead.

Again, my opinion only. But I do have a small amount of experience in this and I believe I am correct. Could be wrong, have been in the past.