04-21-2004, 14:43
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#31
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
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Damn, sorry for misleading you guys.
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Solid is offline
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04-21-2004, 15:40
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#32
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Clarksville, TN
Posts: 1,159
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It is the warhead for the older 66mm LAW rocket. It uses a piezo-electric crystal in the nose that crushes and generates a spark of electricity that detonates a base detonating fuze at the rear center of the warhead (as do all HEAT shaped charges). I have no idea why the rocket motor (a tube about 10 inches long, with fins) is not present.
If the nose has impacted and partially collapsed, you can get a bellville-spring effect. (Think of that annoying popping of the bottom of a beer can, in-out, pop-pop). Except, if the nose cap pops inward and the crystal is crushed - detonation. There is supposed to be a graze element (set back armed under the push of launch) that detonates the warhead upon sudden de-acceleration, it obviously did't function, but may be cocked or half cocked and at risk of being jarred free.
In extreme cases, I've heard of the mere cooling of a shadow on the warhead causing uneven cooling of a sun-soaked fuze, freeing a firing pin that then slammed home.
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CSB is offline
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04-21-2004, 15:46
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#33
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central TX
Posts: 1,390
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finally, someone who knows WTF is going on. Whew! I thought you Pro fellas were gonna leave this to us Civs to work out. That could have been interesting
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Air.177 is offline
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04-21-2004, 15:50
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#34
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
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Thank you, CSB.
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Solid is offline
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04-21-2004, 15:53
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#35
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Quote:
Originally posted by CSB
It is the warhead for the older 66mm LAW rocket. It uses a piezo-electric crystal in the nose that crushes and generates a spark of electricity that detonates a base detonating fuze at the rear center of the warhead (as do all HEAT shaped charges). I have no idea why the rocket motor (a tube about 10 inches long, with fins) is not present.
If the nose has impacted and partially collapsed, you can get a bellville-spring effect. (Think of that annoying popping of the bottom of a beer can, in-out, pop-pop). Except, if the nose cap pops inward and the crystal is crushed - detonation. There is supposed to be a graze element (set back armed under the push of launch) that detonates the warhead upon sudden de-acceleration, it obviously did't function, but may be cocked or half cocked and at risk of being jarred free.
In extreme cases, I've heard of the mere cooling of a shadow on the warhead causing uneven cooling of a sun-soaked fuze, freeing a firing pin that then slammed home.
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BINGO!!
Well done, CSB, though as an SF guy, I am not surprised that you knew that.
It has a "a point-initiating, base-detonating fuze" (almost all HEAT rounds are base detonated, that is how they function).
As you noted, after firing, the piezo electric crystal fuze in the nose can sit and do nothing for a long time, and then detonate for the most minor of reasons, like a small movement, such as a clearing charge being placed on it, or even a shadow causing the fuze to cool and contract enough to generate the current to detonate it.
That is why it is important to only fire LAWs at hard targets (armored, not thin skinned) and do a thorough police call of the area after shooting, if you are clearing the range.
It is an electric/electronic device, IIRC, there is no firing pin in the warhead that I am aware of.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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04-21-2004, 15:54
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#36
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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If desired, I can post a picture of how it happened, but will answer no questions from non-SF guys about the specifics.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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04-21-2004, 15:55
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#37
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central TX
Posts: 1,390
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So, TR what would you recommend doing about such a thing? Back off and shoot it with a .50? Throw rocks at it till it goes BOOM?
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Air.177 is offline
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04-21-2004, 15:59
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#38
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
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TR, any pictures would be much appreciated, even without an SF commentary.
Thank you,
Solid
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Solid is offline
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04-21-2004, 16:07
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#39
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,741
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The other thing to worry about is Static Electricity and all of the above other concerns. Piezos are very reliable when they hit something Solid , as TR said, but once "Armed", and damaged they are unpredictable at best. A .50 shot may set it off, but if you don't know what you are doing, don't even think about approaching it and definitely do not get anywhere in front of it, I've seen "Plasma Balls and Jets" in action and it would not be pretty. I won't go into any detailed diposal in here.
Take care.
Martin
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Ambush Master is offline
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04-21-2004, 16:10
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#40
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Quote:
Originally posted by Air.177
So, TR what would you recommend doing about such a thing? Back off and shoot it with a .50? Throw rocks at it till it goes BOOM?
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You could shoot it with a de-arming gun to scatter it, but I would VERY CAREFULLY place a clearing charge or better yet, one of the EOD mini-shaped charges on top of it.
Here is the rest of it. Remember, no questions.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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04-21-2004, 16:13
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#41
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central TX
Posts: 1,390
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I don't even want to know
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Air.177 is offline
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04-21-2004, 18:05
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#42
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Suffering from SF TDY Envy
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: null
Posts: 228
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Wow, I just hope he was right handed.
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04-21-2004, 19:20
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#43
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,741
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Was that an attempt at "Dis-arming" of a misfire ?? When you say de-arming gun are you referring to a "Water-Cannon" or "Disrupter" ?? PM if you prefer.
Later
Martin
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04-21-2004, 21:19
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#44
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,510
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TR, do you happen to also have a picture of the Range Control guy's face that came to see why you guys suddenly called for a cold range?
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Razor is offline
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04-22-2004, 07:36
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#45
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razor
TR, do you happen to also have a picture of the Range Control guy's face that came to see why you guys suddenly called for a cold range?
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We had the keys to the range permanently.
EOD refused to respond to our range allegedly due to the improvised, expedient and other non-standard munitions we employed.
As they put it. "You built 'em, you shot 'em, YOU clear 'em. We ain't coming to Coleman Range for you guys, ever."
Nice, since Demo Committee shot 60,000 lbs of demo per year, much in the aforementioned more hazardous improvised munitions, expended it training almost 1,000 students per year, and were on the range an average of 10 days per month, and were not authorized Demo Pay, but EOD was.
We did get put in check fire occasionally when someone in the area (COSMONITES camping adjacent to the range, low flying planes, people back on main post with rattled windows) would complain.
War Story for RL:
We had almost 500 lbs. of charges placed on five seperate ring mains burning downrange, the first (a steel cutting shot) went off. Radio starts squawking, Range 69, check fire, CHECK FIRE!!
I reach out of the bunker and grab the handset to see what is up while continuing to look at my watch for the countdown.
Ask Range Control what is up. They say that a unit has taken incoming frag from our range. I ask how the unit knows it is ours. He says that they are up by the entrance to the range where the stopped for lunch and they heard the boom before they got fragged. I ask him if he means by the sign saying "Range 69, Coleman Demo" and "Danger, Explosives" right by where the big red hot range flag is flying, he checks with them and says "yes".
Since he missed my first attempt at humor, and we have a few seconds before the next explosion takes place, I ask Range Control if he has one of those Ft Bragg Range Special maps handy, he says of course, it is right there on the wall. I ask him to look at the big red circle around Range 69, and tell me if they are in the clearly posted "Danger Zone" area indicated on the map.
He says yes, and reminds me to check fire. I tell him that I cannot, I have fuzes burning downrange. He tells me to go cut them. Everyone in the bunker is looking at me by this point, and I tell him, "I don't think I will". He "orders" me to do so. I laugh and tell him that if he wants someone to go downrange and cut burning fuzes on 400 lbs. of demo, he needs to drive out to the range real fast and do it himself. I then key up the handset as the next charge goes off about 5 seconds later so that he can hear it back at Range Contol. He tells me to safe and clear after the charges are all shot and call him on the land line. I call his boss instead, and talk about safety and common sense.
Fun and games with explosives.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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