12-31-2010, 15:05
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#16
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 4,476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino
Is there historical evidence that our choice "to offend Nazism" delayed the end of combat operations against Germany?
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IMO, yes.
FDR's numerous 'insults' to the Nazi regime during America's undeclared war against Germany in 1941 motivated Germany in no small part to declare war against the U.S. in December of that year. (The enemy of the world emphasized this undeclared war in his speech of 11 December 1941 << LINK>>. ) In the short term, Hitler's umbrage played to his enemies' advantage. By declaring war on the United States, the enemy of the world spared President Roosevelt the uphill task of convincing the American people that fighting Nazi Germany was the right thing to do.
Yet, in 1941 America was not ready to fight a general war against both Japan and Germany. This unreadiness translated to the Americans being treated like junior partners by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee as well as by Winston Churchill. Until the Americans established equal footing with the British, strategic decisions (too) often served Britian's long term interests at the expense of the U.S.'s.
In turn, these decisions led to operations that many Americans felt delayed the establishment of a second front in Western Europe (e.g. GYMNAST/TORCH and HUSKY). The delays exacerbated relations between the Soviet Union and the United States. Both feared that the other might strike a separate peace with Germany.
To placate Stalin, the U.S. emphasized that war in Europe would not end without both the 'unconditional surrender' and subsequent partition of Germany. This position was codified during the Yalta conference of 1945. Although Germany had already committed itself to 'total war' in 1943--if not earlier--the notion of a Soviet interpretation of 'unconditional surrender' impacted the conduct of operations on the eastern front (where the Second World War was won). Anthony Beevor, among others, argues that the horrific civilian causalities suffered during the Battle for Berlin were attributable the Germans' justifiable fears of Russian retribution << LINK2>>. (General Eisenhower's naval aide, Harry C. Butcher, commented in his diary on how German units would not surrender to Soviet units in May 1945.)
Moreover, contemporaneous American criticism of Nazi ideology struck many a nerve stateside. On the one hand, the U.S. rightly pointed out that Nazism codified a constellation of beliefs antithetical to liberalism (note, the lower case 'l'). Yet at the same time, America itself still had a long way to go on the long road to democracy << LINK3>>.
While I am skeptical of the notion of 'the lessons of history,' I do think we should be exceedingly cautious in how we beat the drums of war during this current conflict.
My $0.02. YMMV.
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Sigaba is offline
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12-31-2010, 15:11
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#17
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 4,476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Rock
Is there historical evidence of authoritarian rulers who laid down restrictions on free speech, dissent, and criticism, to tighten their authoritarian grip?
Did Roosevelt or Truman solicit Nazi propagandists to run their War Departments and National Security apparatus?
Were there any concessions made to Nazism’s radical ideology by our Government during WWII ?
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With respect, you have a habit of not addressing questions posed to you.
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Sigaba is offline
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12-31-2010, 16:03
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#18
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Occupied Wokeville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Rock
Were there any concessions made to Nazism’s radical ideology by our Government during WWII ?
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Neville Chamberlain the Appeaser....while he wasn't from 'our Government' he did represent the allies (imo) and he signed away the rights of countries and their citizens, and we didn't object too much.
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Paslode is offline
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12-31-2010, 18:29
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#19
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BANNED USER
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Location: Western NC
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Quote:
With respect, you have a habit of not addressing questions posed to you.
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I’m still waiting for you to explain to me how the Islamic terrorists are theologically violating the basic tenets of their faith?
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T-Rock is offline
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12-31-2010, 18:37
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#20
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigaba
....the notion of a Soviet interpretation of 'unconditional surrender' impacted the conduct of operations on the eastern front (where the Second World War was won).
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IIRC, we (the US and UK) destroyed more German cities than the Soviets did, and provided other Allies with large quantities of war materials.
No doubt the Reds were engaged in ground combat longer and against much greater numbers of Nazi forces, but I would not presume to categorically state that they "won the war".
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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12-31-2010, 19:27
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#21
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA-Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Rock
I agree to an extent…{your entire post} but I think you’re confusing an ideology with ethnicity. I disagree with those who express fear in uniting the Ummah - those who hate us already hate us and nothing can be done to change that - what’s wrong with drawing em’ out of the shadows for the world to see?
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We are actively targeting the extremists across the globe as we should be. In regard to ideology, IMHO the hierarchy of identification in sentient beings is not so simply defined.
A man can be, a son, a brother, a husband, a father, a Waziri, a Pakistani, a Sunni, a Muslim, an engineer, a soldier of the 7th Division, and the list goes on. The hierarchy of this man's identification and loyalty just isn't as simple as Islam trumps everything all the time, if it was for example the different interpretations and massive historic violence between Sunnis and Shi'ites wouldn't exist.
We are at war, precision and knowledge can only help us. IIRC one of the ways we were initially able to track AQ in the hills of Afghanistan, was talking to the spice merchants, taxi drivers, and money changers of Kabul. A great number of AQ are Saudi Arabs, Afghans are not Arabs, the Saudis eat different spices, dress differently, had to change currency, and needed to be driven around to get these things. We put ourselves at disadvantage by ignoring the diversity, rifts, and competing motivations within Islam.
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"Men Wanted: for Hazardous Journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success.” -Sir Ernest Shackleton
“A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.” –Greek proverb
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akv is offline
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12-31-2010, 19:51
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#22
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Guest
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Stiring the pot
Quote:
Originally Posted by akv
IMHO the hierarchy of identification in sentient beings is not so simply defined.....
.....We put ourselves at disadvantage by ignoring the diversity, rifts, and competing motivations within Islam.
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I've enjoyed this thread thus far. Part of the problem with Hierarchy is putting a face to the cause. In Facsism, Cummunism, Socialism, we have a leader. In Christianity, Roman Catholic, we have the Pope, in Mormonism, we have a Prophet, in Evangelical Christian, we have, ?????, In Judaism, we have ????
What face do we put on Islam, is it Arab, Malaysian, other? Who speaks for Islam?
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01-01-2011, 12:11
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#23
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orange, Ca.
Posts: 4,941
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If I thought that Islam, in general, was working to subdue Terrorism/Jihad, I would tend to be more respectful of Islam's sensitivities. But, other than Saudi Arabia, I know of no other Islamic country that is actively trying to thwart Terrorism/Jihad. Even the Saudis give money to appease terrorists but at least on a minimal, self-serving level, they do cooperate. There may be others assisting the U.S. and I will applaud them. But, I will not forget the Muslim masses celebrating in the streets after 9-11. Islam exposed its true feelings towards the rest of the world at that time.
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Mark's Rule of War #1- You must fight the war on terms the enemy understands.
Mark's Rule of War #2- Don't start a war with someone who can blow up your shxt
faster than you can make it.
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mark46th is offline
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01-01-2011, 13:13
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#24
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,741
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I'm saying it again!!!
We must have (not to be read as "NEED") an Amendment to Our Constitution, which states that these "Rights" are only applicable to those that are in TOTAL agreement to all of them (The Rights Granted To Us By The Constitution and It's Amendments!!)!!!
If "they" can't accept these terms, then NONE of those Rights, Granted by Our Constitution,............APPLY to THEM!!!
Happy New Year!!
Martin
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Ambush Master is offline
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01-01-2011, 14:38
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#25
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA-Germany
Posts: 1,572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet Dog
What face do we put on Islam, is it Arab, Malaysian, other? Who speaks for Islam?
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Sir,
IMHO that is exactly the $64 question. Islam has a global leadership failure which makes Zero look competent. They have had strong leaders in the past, Saladin was revered for both his strength and chivalry by his Crusader enemies. More recently Ataturk built a secular state with Democracy in the 1920's, people are people most want to be led , a strong leader can change tradition. I believe Anwar Sadat eventually saw the light as well, and what might have been had he not been assassinated?
Folks have mentioned the Saudis, IMO they are the worst of the lot, Despots who accept our protection while funneling terror through the back door. They never worked for their wealth and it shows, they are lucky the West chose to pay them for their oil instead of just taking it. Do we think Stalin would have paid them for oil in 1945?
It may be ignorance, but I cannot currently point to a significant Muslim statesman with any global credibility, Karzai seems as shady as the day is long. Perhaps this is just the nature of Third World leadership, though there are certainly instances of credible non Muslim Third World statesmen, India's Manmohan Singh for example.
In this leadership vacuum, with the only prominent Muslims voices being the infamous actions of wolves like Saddam or UBL, the face of Islam is easily perceived in a dark light.
Folks have mentioned Muslims dancing in the streets after 9-11, frankly that makes my blood boil. However, consider the Palestinians we saw cheering on CNN, initially I just wanted to carpet bomb them, but these people are pawns, for all their wealth the Arab nations pay lip service to this cause, but do nothing significant to help the Palestinians. In their eyes, they have equal claim to the land, they aren't highly educated, they view the Israelis as aggressors with tanks, and are manipulated by the other Arab states. They believe America enables their enemies to harm them, hence the cheering at our loss. The options are simple, either exterminate them or foster the leadership and infrastructure within their communities to co-exist.
IMHO it will all boil down to Iraq, if a stable prosperous democracy can be established in the heart of the Middle East, the ramifications for the neighboring despots and their subjects will move towards regime change in American interests.
We have shed a great deal of American blood there, and need to see this through. The Islamists are terrified at the thought of a modern secular Iraq becoming the flagship and face of the Muslim world, it would confirm what the fundamentalists already know and fear, they have no future.
__________________
"Men Wanted: for Hazardous Journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success.” -Sir Ernest Shackleton
“A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.” –Greek proverb
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akv is offline
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01-01-2011, 16:38
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#26
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BANNED USER
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Location: Western NC
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Quote:
What face do we put on Islam, is it Arab, Malaysian, other? Who speaks for Islam?
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Muhammad is the model of virtue, and a “beautiful pattern of conduct” for anyone who attempts to represent Islam.
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day (Sura 33:21)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...t.html#033.021
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T-Rock is offline
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01-01-2011, 18:59
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#27
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ft Benning
Posts: 707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akv
IMHO it will all boil down to Iraq, if a stable prosperous democracy can be established in the heart of the Middle East, the ramifications for the neighboring despots and their subjects will move towards regime change in American interests.
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Which is exactly why the Russians and the Chinese, via the Persians and Jihadists, cannot allow that to happen. IMO, we have allowed ourselves to become distracted.
__________________
"I see that you notice that I wear glasses. Well, it was to be. I've not only grown old and gray, I've become almost blind in the service of my country." - General George Washington
"There are times in your life you'll be required to perform an exceedingly difficult task to the best of your ability, regardless of your perceived capability. Mental toughness is what will carry the day during these times. In other words, you suck it up and do what you have to do." - Razor
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lindy is offline
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01-04-2011, 23:53
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#28
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Guest
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Question for those in the know
What did it take for a young Croatian boy, less then 20 yo, to have a Christian tattoo done I'm guessing in the 1920-1930's.
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01-05-2011, 03:03
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#29
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1,243
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Not in the know...
...but thanks for bringing this up, it will give me more items to research - particularly on the topic of Turkish Slavery. Thank you Sir.
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T-Rock is offline
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01-05-2011, 10:25
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#30
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA-Germany
Posts: 1,572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadsword2004
The number system we use is Arabic (1,2,3,4,5...etc...are Hindu-Arabic numbers).
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Zero, as well as the concept of zero was also important. In this case the general belief is this system was developed by the Hindu's, but presented to the West via the Arabs who traded with both sides.
__________________
"Men Wanted: for Hazardous Journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success.” -Sir Ernest Shackleton
“A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.” –Greek proverb
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