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Old 02-04-2015, 04:46   #1
JJ_BPK
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MMR Vaccine??

OK,

This FOG needs some guidance..

Scenario:
I and my family, and my friends family, 80% of the world get their MMR and all the other vaccines available, on time, on budget, on their butts.

The parents down the street are avowed anti-vacciners and didn't get their kids shots.

Their kids get measles,,
We are all vaccinated,,
What's the problem???

This does not seem to be a problem that needs to be settled in a court of law??

It's called Darwinism,,
We give awards for the annul winners,,
and it is very successful.

Did I miss something??


Confused
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:06   #2
JJ_BPK
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Doc,

I do not disagree with your points. There are vast numbers of ilinformed & uninformed peoples out there,, Many are current and future Darwin Award Winners..

I am more interested in why some, all, many think this activity has to be legislated.

If mandatory vaccinations are law,

Do we jail people that refuse to sign organ donor cards?

Is someone rejecting a hospitals DNR also a felon?

Does the person who prefers holistic medicine for their cancer belong in jail?

If it's not obvious, I tend to be in the Libertarian boat,, on certain subjects..

Mandatory legislation of medicine is one such topic..
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:26   #3
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Originally Posted by DocIllinois View Post
I have a friend who teaches high school physics. The parents of one of his students recently protested the fact that their son was being taught the theory of gravity, which they didn't believe in.
You have got to be shitting! You can observe that with your own eyes.
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:29   #4
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You have got to be shitting! You can observe that with your own eyes.
The most disgusting part of that is the fact that that same person gets to vote.
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:58   #5
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Originally Posted by JJ_BPK View Post
Doc,

I do not disagree with your points. There are vast numbers of ilinformed & uninformed peoples out there,, Many are current and future Darwin Award Winners..

I am more interested in why some, all, many think this activity has to be legislated.

If mandatory vaccinations are law,

Do we jail people that refuse to sign organ donor cards?

Is someone rejecting a hospitals DNR also a felon?

Does the person who prefers holistic medicine for their cancer belong in jail?

If it's not obvious, I tend to be in the Libertarian boat,, on certain subjects..

Mandatory legislation of medicine is one such topic..
This is an issue near and dear to my heart. As a children's cancer and bone marrow transplantation specialist, I have patients with profoundly compromised immune systems that cannot receive their vaccines and would likely have extremely severe (possibly fatal) complications from infection from what is by-and-large a completely preventable disease.

I am dreading the day one of my patients - who relies solely on herd immunity (infection prevention through mass vaccination to protect the few who cannot receive or respond to a vaccine) - dies as the result of exposure to a vaccine-preventable infection from the child of an anti-vaxxer. I would push hard for manslaughter charges against the family that did not choose to vaccinate their child, along with a massive civil lawsuit. If it came out that they knew their non-vaccinated child was exposed to measles or another vaccine-preventable infection and did not self-impose quarantine, one could reasonably push for additional criminal charges.

80% of all children who are diagnosed with cancer will be long-term survivors - it would be a shame for some child to go through chemotherapy, radiation and/or immunotherapy only to die because someone refuses to vaccinate their child.

Rant off.
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:11   #6
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Most of the people on this board aren't old enough to remember Polio. You have never gone to school with a child who had to wear a leg brace(s), walk with crutches or had a withered arm(s). And these are the ones that lived. Jonas Salk should be a Saint.
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:03   #7
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Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc View Post
I have patients with profoundly compromised immune systems that cannot receive their vaccines and would likely have extremely severe (possibly fatal) complications from infection from what is by-and-large a completely preventable disease...

80% of all children who are diagnosed with cancer will be long-term survivors - it would be a shame for some child to go through chemotherapy, radiation and/or immunotherapy only to die because someone refuses to vaccinate their child.

Rant off.
As a rabid defender of individual liberty and opposer of government encroachment, I view this issue as one of public heath. We, as a civilization, have taken great steps to rid the world of many crippling diseases. Those who cannot be vaccinated rely on the rest of us to keep the diseases at bay.
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:14   #8
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Every doctor I know, (and I know quite a few) says get your vaccines.

Every hollywood celebrity, high school drop out parents, and many liberals say not to get the vaccines.

I just wish these folks were alive when polio, typhoid was around......

The same folks that think autism is caused by vaccines are the same morons that voted for the Squatter in the White House, twice.

Let the morons die.......
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:48   #9
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FWIW - as a school administrator - the only anti-vaccine groups I ever had to deal with were either against it on the basis of religious beliefs in regards to medical practices or didn't have the money to pay for them.

Those who couldn't afford them were easily resolved by referring them to the county health department where provisions were in place for them to receive their vaccinations; the personal religious belief issue(s) were much more problematic to deal with.

Richard
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:01   #10
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
FWIW - as a school administrator - the only anti-vaccine groups I ever had to deal with were either against it on the basis of religious beliefs in regards to medical practices or didn't have the money to pay for them.

Those who couldn't afford them were easily resolved by referring them to the county health department where provisions were in place for them to receive their vaccinations; the personal religious belief issue(s) were much more problematic to deal with.

Richard
From my experience, anti-vaccine groups coach people to cite religious beliefs as a reason to refuse vaccination because it is considered legal to do so. It doesn't have anything to do with religion for a VAST majority of folks.
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:25   #11
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Ever deal with a devout Christian scientist family? I hope you never have to experience a CS vs .Gov (PHS, CPS, Ed) feud over a child's health care. Good luck.

Richard
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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:28   #12
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Why Do Republicans Have Such a Hard Time With Vaccines?

FWIW...<<from Bloomberg Politics>>
Quote:
Why Do Republicans Have Such a Hard Time With Vaccines?
Feb 4, 2015 2:45 AM PST
Is mistrust of government fueling the party's vaccine skepticism?

Lisa Lerer

When New Jersey Governor Chris Christie headed to London this week, his goal was to shore up his foreign policy credentials with friendly visit to America's strongest ally. Instead, he ended up entangling his party in an emotionally-fraught battle back home.

Christie, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul, and the rest of the Republican presidential field have spent much of the past few days clarifying their positions on mandatory vaccination—a long-established tenant of public health that been met with skepticism by an unusual coalition of crunchy liberals, Christian conservatives, and anti-government libertarians.

While neither party has a lock on anti-vaccine sentiment, the GOP's suspicion of government, broadly, and of science, in general, is particularly strong, which explains why Republican candidates often find themselves struggling to strike a balance between medical evidence and conservative mistrust. It's a conflict that's played out for years over climate change, as Republicans try to please their base while fending off mockery for disputing long-established evidence that human activity contributes to rising temperatures. And it flared up again last year amid fears of an Ebola outbreak when doctors criticized Republicans, including Christie, for calling for stringent quarantines.
“It’s more important what you think as a parent than what you think as a public official.” Governor Chris Christie

There are signs that the vaccination issue could morph into the same kind of Republican litmus test—a prospect that many in the party quickly tried to tamp down with strong statements in support of immunization. Still, six years ago, an equal percentage of Democrats and Republicans backed requiring vaccines for children. When asked again last week, Democratic support held at 71 percent, while Republican and independents fell to 65 percent.


In 2012, GOP primary rivals attacked then-Texas Governor Rick Perry for becoming the first governor in the country to mandate that sixth-grade girls be vaccinated against human papillomavirus or HPV. Former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum derided Perry's executive order as the "heavy hand of government" and Minnesota Representative Michele Bachmann said the virus could cause "mental retardation." Though her claim is untrue, Perry apologized for his action. "If I had it to do over again, I would have done it differently,” he said.

As far as political issues go, HPV was close to a perfect political storm for Republicans: a combination of suspicions of executive abuse, wariness of sex education, and vaccinations. What's clear, though, from the sociological research about vaccination rates more generally is that anti-vaccination parents stick together. Fueled in part by discredited claims linking childhood shots to autism, they cluster in certain geographic areas like the staunchly Democratic San Francisco Bay Area, fitting the stereotype of ecologically-minded liberals worried about polluting their children's bodies. But that's not the situation nationwide, as a map from the Center for Disease Control shows. High concentrations of anti-vaxxers are also found in more conservative states like Alaska and Idaho, suggesting that opposing immunization is a shared belief among left-leaning circles, Tea Party backers, and conservatives alike.

For clues as how these clusters get started, look to Scandinavia. A 2013 study in the Scandinavian Journal of Public Health suggests vaccine opponents may simply have trust issues. Swedish political scientist Bjorn Ronnerstrand looked at the differences between Swedes who were vaccinated against the H1N1 virus in 2009 and those who opted out, controlling for age, gender, education, health, and level of personal concern about an outbreak. Those who got vaccinated, he found, had higher levels of faith in both the Swedish healthcare system and society in general. A larger survey of H1N1 research conducted by the Department of Sociology at the University of Geneva found similar trends.

"Many Swedes trusted the way their national authorities handled the pandemic, which led to the highest vaccination rate in Europe," wrote the authors. "By contrast, the French population trusted their authorities less and the vaccination rates remained low."

American trust in government among the entire population is at a record low, but it's particularly down among Republicans. In a 2013 survey conducted by the Pew Research Center, nearly 3 in 10 Democrats said they could trust the government, compared to just 10 percent of Republicans.

For libertarians, the idea of mandatory vaccination conflicts with a philosophy of limited government intervention. There's also some level of correlation between anti-vaccination and homeschoolers, in part because of immunization requirements for public school. In 2008, Christian home-school advocates helped boost former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee to victory in Iowa and emerged again four years later to aid former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum.

For a crowded field of Republican wanna-be presidents, who are fighting for every possible pocket of votes, wooing anti-vaccinators matters—particularly in the early primary state of Iowa. That dynamic certainly helps explain Kentucky Senator Rand Paul's strictly libertarian remarks on the subject and even his endorsement of the thoroughly disproven belief that vaccines cause autism. “I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines,” he said on CNBC on Monday night.

And it just might explain Christie's strangely equivocal remarks on the subject in London on Monday. “It’s more important what you think as a parent than what you think as a public official,” he declared. “I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well. So that’s the balance that the government has to decide.”

But as with many issues in presidential politics, what lights up voters in a Republican primary can easily burn in a general. Within hours of his remarks, Christie's office quickly walked back them back.

"To be clear: The governor believes vaccines are an important public health protection and with a disease like measles there is no question kids should be vaccinated," a statement from the governor's office said. "At the same time different states require different degrees of vaccination, which is why he was calling for balance in which ones government should mandate."

Paul went a step further, taking a New York Times reporter with him when he went to get a booster shot for Hepatitis A from a Capitol Hill doctor.

“It just annoys me that I’m being characterized as someone who’s against vaccines,” Paul told the Times.

“There’s 400 headlines now that say ‘Paul says vaccines cause mental disorders,'” he added. “That’s not what I said. I said I’ve heard of people who’ve had vaccines and they see a temporal association and they believe that.”

That message was echoed by a number of candidates on Tuesday, showing that Republicans are hoping to take vaccines off the table as a presidential issue. "Children should be fully vaccinated," Florida Senator Marco Rubio told reporters at the U.S. Capitol. "Why would we go backwards?"

But for Christie, Rubio, and the rest of the Republican field, the problem may be that Democrats—and more importantly likely nominee Hillary Clinton—seem to have a very different plan in mind.
Also, http://www.bloombergview.com/quickta...fying-vaccines

MOO, casting the anti vaccination movement as primarily liberal hogwash is not a good position politically. The GOP has its own issues with science and scientific inquiry. YMMV.
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:34   #13
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Anecdotally, the only people I know that are anti-vaccine believe it causes development issues in children like Autism. And, for those that I know how they voted, all went Democrat.

I guess Liberals want to give the anti-science Republicans a run for their money....
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:09   #14
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First, it is a shame that 2 Rep. politicos opened their mouths to speak on the vaccinate or not issue before engaging their brains , and one of them a Dr.
That being said, if you look at where the most cases of this latest outbreak is occurring it is in the bastions of the left, and as one researcher put it "look where there is a whole foods and draw a circle around it."
I am one that thinks there should be much less government in our lives, but this is clearly a public health issue, and I see that like I see rights; my own rights END where your rights BEGIN; my rights as a parent to not vaccinate my child end when my child goes in contact with other children. I've been vaccinated against everything in the world it seems like and so have my children and grandchildren.

Darwinism is alive and very well.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:50   #15
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First, it is a shame that 2 Rep. politicos opened their mouths to speak on the vaccinate or not issue before engaging their brains , and one of them a Dr.
That being said, if you look at where the most cases of this latest outbreak is occurring it is in the bastions of the left, and as one researcher put it "look where there is a whole foods and draw a circle around it."
I am one that thinks there should be much less government in our lives, but this is clearly a public health issue, and I see that like I see rights; my own rights END where your rights BEGIN; my rights as a parent to not vaccinate my child end when my child goes in contact with other children. I've been vaccinated against everything in the world it seems like and so have my children and grandchildren.

Darwinism is alive and very well.
This. What most people tend to forget is that attached to "Rights" is another "r" word - Responsibility. In this case, as PedOncoDoc made abundantly clear, your choices can have potentially lethal consequences for others.

JJ, this goes back to your original question of,
Quote:
"Their kids get measles,,
We are all vaccinated,, What's the problem???"
As I understand it, with regard to measles, there are 4 groups of people:
1. MMR Vaccine results in immunity (most of us)
2. Around 3% of fully vaccinated children don't develop a lasting immunity, and are susceptible to infection with the virus.
3. The un-vaccinated (those under 12 months of age)
4. Those who are severely imuno-compromised (as PedOncoDoc pointed out)

It is for these last three groups that everyone should be vaccinated. The goal, then is to reach a Herd Immunity level (~85-90% of population successfully vaccinated) to protect those 3 groups.
A choice not to vaccinate has much farther reaching consequences than just your child.

Further reading, if desired:
Written by a pediatrician
For the visual learner (there are 16 in the album-view them all)
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