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Old 03-22-2006, 11:59   #16
The Reaper
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OZ HAS SPOKEN!!

Yeah, I am going to pack up my $1500 DragonSkin vest and turn it into the CIF to be shipped to Natick where it can be destroyed.

Right.

TR
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Old 03-22-2006, 12:36   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
OZ HAS SPOKEN!!

Yeah, I am going to pack up my $1500 DragonSkin vest and turn it into the CIF to be shipped to Natick where it can be destroyed.

Right.

TR
And not be reimbursed for the cost of the vest.

Urinanalysis anyone?
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Old 03-23-2006, 06:41   #18
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Sounds like a lot of arse covering ( and zero defect mentality) on the part of GOs who have no idea what it is truly like to hump that heavy ass, hot IBA. Espcecially when you are at 5000 ft plus in the Hindu Kush or sweating your ass off in TK, DR, Blessing, etc.......

Just my .02......
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:50   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothar
Sounds like a lot of arse covering ( and zero defect mentality) on the part of GOs who have no idea what it is truly like to hump that heavy ass, hot IBA. Espcecially when you are at 5000 ft plus in the Hindu Kush or sweating your ass off in TK, DR, Blessing, etc.......

Just my .02......
IIRC, the DragonSkin weighs more than the IBA (but it claims better protection, especially against multiple impacts).

This policy will result in a showdown inspection of all body armor in theater, after which those who own it will replace the IBA plates with the DragonSkin again and live (or not) with the consequences.

TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:19   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothar
Sounds like a lot of arse covering ( and zero defect mentality) on the part of GOs who have no idea what it is truly like to hump that heavy ass, hot IBA. Espcecially when you are at 5000 ft plus in the Hindu Kush or sweating your ass off in TK, DR, Blessing, etc.......

Just my .02......
That is IMNSHO a typical GI bitch. In reality NATTIC truly tries to provide the best equipment possible. They do seek and accept troop input. It is troops who actually do much of the testing. I am sure there are QPs on this forum who have been involved in the testing. We were involved in the testing done by the Tropical Test Center in the Canal Zone. Many improvements to equipment were developed there for issue in RVN.

Its not a matter of KYA. If a directive is issued forbidding the use of a certain piece of equipment then it is a matter of obeying orders. Standardization is a necessity when dealing with 130K+ troops. You may sweat your ass off humping the mountains and have to live with the deaths of a few comrads. Believe me, those stupid, unknowing FG and GOs live with their responsibilities and feel the weight of thousands of lives on their shoulders.

To me it is pretty simple. If they say don't then don't. The consequences for disobeying could truly be a LOD "No" finding and loss of survivor benefits.

An old saying I used to use on my men when given an unpopular order was: "You can make it easy and go ahead and do it; or you can bitch, stamp your feet and hit your head against the wall and then do it; but you will do it or else."

Sorry for the rant. Bitching is one of the few rights of a subordinate. I was a frequent and avid user of this right. But in the end I did as ordered.
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Old 03-30-2006, 20:09   #21
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189763,00.html

I think there were a few questions on the military's own tests of the Dragon Skin. Here ya go:

Quote:
"Army Lt. Col. Scott Campbell said the Army has asked Pinnacle to provide 30 sets of the full Dragon Skin armor so it can be independently tested. He said Pinnacle has indicated it won't be able to provide that armor until May, and the company said that is still the plan."
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Old 04-01-2006, 06:07   #22
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Roger that! Just exercising my rights. You and TR do understand "Joe". WILCO on the issue of the bodyarmor. DEROS in 60 days.
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Old 04-02-2006, 05:55   #23
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Vests

Reading all of this about body armor Is very interesting to me. We never used to wear vests, but were never in a conflict such as the current one either. I wore a vest for a couple of years after I retired and was a State Trooper, and only then because we were issued them and it was mandated by our department to wear them. It was hot, very uncomfortable and restricted my movement noticably.

Every company boosts of their claim to fame about their product. I never heard of a vest that would stop an ice pick. I t may stop a large caliber hand gun but could be penetrated by a .22. Technology continues to advance so I am sure headway has been made the past couple of years. Now that the military is using vests the manufacures have a new, very large, targeted audience. Big profits!

I have to admire the guys wearing this beasts in the current environment they are in. I also have to respect their decisions to pursue a better, more comfortable vest than what is being issued to them.

The comments about Natic labs were instersting. Natic used to use the ground pounders for evaluations and input. They were soldier friendly so to speak. One of you commented they still are that way.

SF has always been a "do what it takes to get the job done" organization. We always spent a lot of our own money to have lighter, better equipment and that was the way it was. The vest controversy is a little different than in previous years. It is there to protect your life if needed. It also has to provide freedom of movement. I do not think "comfort " can be connected to a vest.

Do your research on vests before spending a fortune to purchase one. I have never been to go with the flow so I support those who stray from party line. I never completely trusted the military's testing and evaluations for items either. What in the hell arelGenerals evaluating vests for anyway? They are not humping, dodging, reacting and so on. that is right up there with a clerk testing new boots for the field guys. That provides a flawed evaluation report.

Good luck.

Dave
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Old 04-03-2006, 07:27   #24
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Do your research on vests before spending a fortune to purchase one. I have never been to go with the flow so I support those who stray from party line. I never completely trusted the military's testing and evaluations for items either. What in the hell arelGenerals evaluating vests for anyway? They are not humping, dodging, reacting and so on. that is right up there with a clerk testing new boots for the field guys. That provides a flawed evaluation report.
It is apparent that you have never been detailed to the Hunter Ligget test site. We had SF Teams, as well as conventional combat units assigned to the Test site. The environmental as well as combat conditions are replicated as closely as possible. The same was true for the Tropical Test Center which was located in the Canal Zone.
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Old 04-03-2006, 08:26   #25
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Originally Posted by QRQ 30
It is apparent that you have never been detailed to the Hunter Ligget test site. We had SF Teams, as well as conventional combat units assigned to the Test site. The environmental as well as combat conditions are replicated as closely as possible. The same was true for the Tropical Test Center which was located in the Canal Zone.
Terry,
We also used to stand men in front of nuclear blasts, for testing. There are some things we no longer do. It may surprise you as to how some equipment is currently tested, or not tested until it actually reaches the hands of the men fighting the war.
There's a lot of things we did 40, 30, even 5 years ago we no longer do.

TS
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Old 04-03-2006, 08:37   #26
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Terry,
We also used to stand men in front of nuclear blasts, for testing. There are some things we no longer do. It may surprise you as to how some equipment is currently tested, or not tested until it actually reaches the hands of the men fighting the war.
There's a lot of things we did 40, 30, even 5 years ago we no longer do.

TS
I am sure this is true. OTOH I know some people who were detailed to NATTIC (spelling?) while at Devons. My point is that there is more than likely much more research and developement in progress than people are aware of.

It was said that when an item got into the troops hands, its replacement was already in production and many more changes were on the drawing board. I used to have a clerk assigned who did nothing but post changes to the commel manuals and he never caught up.
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Old 04-03-2006, 08:47   #27
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Originally Posted by QRQ 30
I am sure this is true. OTOH I know some people who were detailed to NATTIC (spelling?) while at Devons. My point is that there is more than likely much more research and developement in progress than people are aware of.
And some are very aware....

http://www.natick.army.mil/

http://www.darpa.mil/

http://www.otc.army.mil/Otc/abnsotd.htm
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Old 04-03-2006, 09:13   #28
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QRQ 30

I have been to Hunter Ligget, back in 1973 or 1974. I did not witneww the same conditions you seem to have witnessed. Natic used to be great at testing cold weather euipment and rations. The controlled environment testing did not always fair very good in the actual environment. I am sure testing is being done, but when time if a factor, not every aspect the testing requirements for the item are very thorough. Testing a vest in a real environment is tough. Another factor the military used weigh very heavily was cost and fielding time can be a major consideration. I have never ruled out the old buddy factor either.
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Old 04-03-2006, 09:23   #29
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Have to agree.

The Army has a huge bureaucracy dedicated to T&Eing soldier equipment.

IMHO, it is slow, non-responsive, territorial, bureaucratic, probably ridden with graft, nepotism, and NIH syndrome, and not terribly good at listening to soldier input to give them what they need, much less what they want.

For example, it took them over 50 years to get away from non-break-away ski bindings, M-1950 pattern LBE, and Korean War-era cold weather gear. By the time they came up with new products, they were three more generations behind the COTS equivalent.

Meanwhile, the civilian outdoor industry has leapt decades ahead of the military in developing and fielding quality field products.

Based upon what I saw over almost 30 years, I think that the miltiary RDT&E community needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up.

TR
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Old 04-03-2006, 10:57   #30
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Have to agree. *******

Based upon what I saw over almost 30 years, I think that the miltiary RDT&E community needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up.

TR
I don't think anybody has to look much further than combat soldier's comments on the ACU to support the contention that NATICK is broken. Nor does anyone have to look much further than Congress to see it will probably never get fixed. COTS is ALWAYS more responsive and less expensive when it comes to individual soldier support. Gov't labs should stick to products that have no commercial equivalent and therefore cannot be researched and developed economically by private industry e.g. planes, tanks, warships and their support structure. Body armor "might" be in a gray area with overlap. So why isn't there an objective standard with independant testing and everything that passes the standards is allowed? One size does not fit all and economics is a piss poor reason to force soldiers to put square pegs in round holes. FYI - USASOC has a list of accepted IBA that includes more than just the Interceptor. My .02 - Peregrino
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