Nearly Half of Detroit Illiterate

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by orion5

Hey, anyone need any extra 'would'? 1stindoor seems to have a few extra lying around.

1stid: When you go home tonight to that little hot teacher you're married to, tell her you need some extra tutoring and discipline, ok?

Crap! Well done Jill.

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by Dusty

...or to being too fucking lazy to learn anything?
...or to thinking it's "dumb" to be smart?
...or to having one parent who doesn't give a shit whether they go to school or sell crack?
...or being born with an IQ lower than squid nuts?
...or because they scare the fuck out of the educators?

It's everybody's fault but the individual. They're all victims of oppression.

OH NO YOU DIDN'T SAY DHAT.......moving my head side to side as I type. I have nothing to add. It is written above.

[Red Flag 1]

Originally Posted by orion5

Hey, anyone need any extra 'would'? 1stindoor seems to have a few extra lying around.

1stid: When you go home tonight to that little hot teacher you're married to, tell her you need some extra tutoring and discipline, ok?

Dis be a purtty tuff bord if you axe me


RF 1

[plato]

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

The urban children performed much more poorly on the test, but were much better trained at daily tasks (e.g. preparing their own meal and indepently performing other necessary tasks) which raised concerns about validity of the testing.

PedOncoDoc,

You're the expert, but wouldn't the abilities/potential measured in an IQ test (solving problems not seen before) be of a very different nature than those measured from the ability to repeat a process over and over (mix eggs, milk, flour, pour in pan and...... pancakes) after being shown exactly how?

Keying on the word "trained".

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

The low IQ is not a correctable problem.

If that's the case they shouldn't be allowed to breed.

As far as language barriers, my ancestors all came to this country not knowing how to read or speak English. They did their best and made sure the children DID learn.

The difference between my ancestors and the current immigrants, legal or illegal, is there is no desire to learn or assimilate.

[nmap]

I notice that San Antonio has a 25% functional illiteracy rate. LINK. I can't say I'm surprised.

The problem with IQ is that there are, arguably, different kinds of learning. The politically correct approach is to suggest that the ability to use public transportation to get to a job, or to cook something to feed a family, or to deal with the food stamp system represents one kind of intelligence, co-equal with the type of intelligence needed to solve a simple math problem or follow a set of written instructions.

IQ tests in general produce a normal distribution curve. Various groups have different curves, and the mean value for those groups differ. The text "The Bell Curve" addresses this.

Which measures are best? I think I'll avoid stepping into that minefield.

Can everyone be taught something? Sure. But can everyone be taught some particular set of skills? I doubt it. Until we recognize this disparity and act accordingly, I doubt we'll make much progress with illiteracy.

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by nmap

Until we recognize this disparity and act accordingly, I doubt we'll make much progress with illiteracy.

Don't you think if teachers were teaching reading, penmanship, writing etc instead of why it's okay for Johnny to have two mommies that it would make a difference? I learned all those things, my generation wasn't perfect but it wasn't this horrible.

There are kids in my nieces/nephews school that cannot tell time looking at a regular clock. They cannot make change from a dollar. They are not being taught to cursive write...because there are computers. It goes on and on and it pisses me off because there is no need for this to be happening.

[Dusty]

Fuck that psychobabble mumbo-jumbo. I was born a dumbass; learned how to tie my shoes, use a fork, read, balance a checkbook, blah, blah...

You can teach 'em if they wanna learn.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Gypsy

Don't you think if teachers were teaching reading, penmanship, writing etc instead of why it's okay for Johnny to have two mommies that it would make a difference? I learned all those things, my generation wasn't perfect but it wasn't this horrible.

Yes, it would make a difference.

Another issue is the emphasis on standardized tests. Schools do need to be held accountable - but the way standardized tests are used seems counterproductive. Teachers need to teach the worthwhile skills Gypsy mentions instead of teaching to the test. MOO, YMMV.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

I can't find the reference, but there was a great article looking at IQ test performance between suburban and urban children. The urban children performed much more poorly on the test, but were much better trained at daily tasks

Doc:

A similar study shows that kids from welfare homes hear only about 600 words an hour, while kids from better-off homes hear about 2,100 words an hour. By the age of 4, the welfare kids had heard 13 million words. The other kids had heard 48 million. By age nine, the children in this study were given an oral IQ test and the scores correlated to the amount of language they heard. (BTW, television/radio didn't count as "hearing" the spoken word. Parents actually need to interact with their children. Imagine that.) *

I suspect that Detroit's illiteracy problem is complex (as Dusty so eloquently detailed for us. Thank you, Dusty.) and not easily remedied. I suspect the majority of the kids in that area would fall into the same category as the welfare kids in the study above. Reading and oral-language proficiency are intimately linked. (I've seen this one first-hand through my son, who has speech/language issues and struggles to read as a result. He's much better at non-verbal tasks.)

Why these kids are on welfare and why their parents/teachers/social workers are failing them is the question. It's tragic. Like Gypsy said, it didn't used to be this way.

Susan

*Dr. Todd Risely, researcher

[PedOncoDoc]

Originally Posted by plato

PedOncoDoc,

You're the expert, but wouldn't the abilities/potential measured in an IQ test (solving problems not seen before) be of a very different nature than those measured from the ability to repeat a process over and over (mix eggs, milk, flour, pour in pan and...... pancakes) after being shown exactly how?

Keying on the word "trained".

The ability to acquire and apply new knowledge is part of most accepted IQ tests - but those require a solid understanding of the language in which they are administered. I'm sure I wouldn't score to well if I had to take a test in Spanish, let-alone in Arabic.

Logic and reasoning can be trained to an extent, same with cooking. I'm sure Penn could tell you there's a difference between making pancakes and making good pancakes.

Someone can be trained to score high on the IQ test - it doesn't make them smart - neither does the ability to make pancakes. The ability to acquire and then apply that knowledge at a high level, in a short period of time, does IMHO.

[Dusty]

The point is, there's no excuse for numbers that bad, anywhere in the Country.

[Richard]

I suggest, at a minimum and without a broad background of in-depth experience with the topic(s), reading Howard Gardner's "Multiple Intelligences" and Jonathan Kozol's "Savage Inequalities" before offering up such concrete opinions on America's complexly diverse educational issues.

Richard

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by nmap

Yes, it would make a difference.

Another issue is the emphasis on standardized tests. Schools do need to be held accountable - but the way standardized tests are used seems counterproductive. Teachers need to teach the worthwhile skills Gypsy mentions instead of teaching to the test. MOO, YMMV.

I always chuckle when attempts are made to improve everyone's standardized test scores (IQ included).

By definition, standardized tests are relative scoring.
For IQ (Weschler scale), average is defined as = 100.

One standard deviation is defined to be 15 points.
It is impossible to get everyone above 100 because improvements (or declines) change the definition of 100.

<shrug>
Half the people I know are below average.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Richard

I suggest, at a minimum and without a broad background of in-depth experience with the topic(s), reading Howard Gardner's "Multiple Intelligences" and Jonathan Kozol's "Savage Inequalities" before offering up such concrete opinions on America's complexly diverse educational issues.

Richard

I suggest learning to read a menu, traffic citation and a prescription to start, but if you can get 'em to work their way up to that dry shit, have at it.