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Old 08-15-2009, 21:36   #46
Richard
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I think nobody denies the threat - the arguments are that its form and potential should be open to discussion - and that the conclusions made from such discussions may differ.

IMO denying the validity of the discussion or the perils of making so many negative totalizing comments about Islam (or any such issue) that our ability to interact productively with Muslims (or anyone) is compromised is a BIG mistake.*

This would be akin to the argument that Nazism (as practiced in WW2) is evil (true), Germans were Nazis (partially true), so Germans are evil (which is as true as for any other population).*

Richard's $.02

* With appreciation to DPA.
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Old 08-15-2009, 22:31   #47
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Richard - My personal philosophy isn't quite as rigid as my words might imply. I'll deal with almost anyone to advance the greater good. FWIW - I'm perfectly willing to concede that the majority of the Muslim world is just "along for the ride". Unfortunately, the extremists (the true Islamists by the Koran's literal definition) are driving the train, the moderates are just passengers, and we're (Western Civilization) singing kum-by-ya (sp?) in the middle of the tracks.

To expound on your WWII analogy - first you win the war; then you reach an accommodation with the survivors. This war is a "Hearts and Minds" campaign and we (the West) haven't even been fighting. On the other hand, the Islamists have been waging a sophisticated strategy from our capitols and courts to our very living rooms (WM's point to this entire thread). We (the government) aren't doing anything to counter it. Declaring the GWOT over and publishing a list of prohibited words doesn't mean the enemy is going to set aside their goals of Islamic domination. The Islamists have internal and external communications, why don't we? Where is the WWII style propoganda aimed at the American people by the American Government that mobilized a nation to fight and win? If an American president were to tell the American people that jihad is evil, that Islamo-fascism is real, and that terrorists need killing and persuade the majority to believe it - who cares what those words mean in Dar al Islam? We offered olive branches to the German population in WWII at the same time we were demonizing them here, where is the difference today?

The Army is at war, America is at the mall. We've been saying that since prime time coverage of 9/11 faded away. If the American people don't defend what they have, it is inevitable that they will lose it. If discourses like this one get a few more thinking about the totality of the issue, any minor disagreements will have been to good purpose.
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Old 08-18-2009, 00:08   #48
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Richard,

Apologize for the delay - I am traveling right now...

You are making a faulty leap in logic (A+B=C).

I am 100% German [of German descent]. (Interestingly, I have NEVER called myself a German-American).
I love beer, bratwurst and sauerkraut. But I am not proud of what Germany did in the 1930’s and 1940s.
What I am PROUD of, is the fact that my [German] grandfather built the P-40 fighter aircraft that helped win the war.

The key distinction is separating the people from the EVIL ideology.

NAZISM as an ideology is and always will be evil.

NAZIs (the people) can be separated from the ideology. Some can’t. How many Germans were unwillingly coerced into supporting the regime?
How many were victims of Stockholm Syndrome?

Key is recognizing the difference exists and the power within it.

And yet, Islam as a religion is inseparable from Islam as a political ideology – and as a complete way of life – a societal alternative.

Bin laden himself says “And every proposal that can possibly benefit the [secular] governments contradicts the sharia, we know this by examination, experience and trial.” 1


WITH RESPECT TO MODERATE ISLAM:

What does Osama bin Laden say in his essay “Moderate Islam is a prostration of the West”? 2

NOTE: This is written BY MUSLIMS, for MUSLIMS:

“Is the atmosphere for understanding found in this [Saudi] declaration based on the sharia, or are they merely expressing their own points of view in an attempt to create an atmosphere of shared understanding to be upheld by the governments and institutions? …

“As for this atmosphere of shared understandings, what evidence is there for Muslims to strive for this? What did the Prophet, the companions after him, and the righteous forebears do?

“Did they wage jihad against the infidels, attacking them all over the earth, in order to place them under the suzerainty of Islam in great humility and submission? 3

“Or did they send messengers to discover “ shared understandings” between themselves and the infidels in order that they may reach an understanding whereby universal peace, security and natural relations would spread – in such a satanic manner as this?

“The sharia provides a true and just path, securing Muslims, and providing peace to the world.” 4

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1 Ibraham, Raymond. “The Al Qaeda Reader.” page 31. Broadway (2007)

2 Ibraham, Raymond. “The Al Qaeda Reader.” pages 30-31. Broadway (2007)

3 See the “pact of Omar” which is the treaty of dhimmitude that was made between the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and the second Caliph, Omar. In order to continue their faith, Jews and Christians had to agree to several social conditions enumerated in the pact that, among other things, were meant to humiliate and debase them in accordance with the Koran 9:29.

FOR EXAMPLE (and by no means is this a complete list):
- They were to rise from their seats if a Muslim wanted it.
- They were forbidden from riding in saddles or bearing any arms.
- They were forbidden from publically showing their crosses, lest Muslim eyes be offended.
- They were forbidden from worshiping too loudly, lest Muslim ears be offended.
- They were forbidden from building new churches or even repairing old ones.

QUESTION: Are you willing to tolerate this?

NOTE: Egypt’s secular government still upholds some of these severe restrictions on Christian churches.

BOTTOMLINE: Dhimmitude is in FACT a basic tenet of Islam and thus should be enforced under sharia law.
From “The al Qaeda Reader” page 288

4 “Peace to the world” as used by bin Laden here refers to when the entire world has converted to Islam, been killed or submitted to dhimitude and been humiliated.

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Old 08-18-2009, 06:11   #49
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It is clear that there are those who are fixated on holding to a mono-causal, top down, totalizing view of history in respect to the Islamic world - a view of history in which history does not unfold but remains static and, therefore, is not history at all.

This view persists despite their self-proclaimed arguments to the contrary in which they do not "purport to know what [M]uslims think (any of them)" - when they clearly think they do know what Muslims think - that Muslims will interpret Islamic law as dogmatically as they do (while history has shown otherwise) - and that they recognize OBL and other jihadist theorists to be as high a religious authority as they do. Such thinking is very much of the Orientalist type (as posited by Edward Said) and can, therefore, be sadly perpetually myopic and self-limiting in its nature.

I am an American - and I do not purport to know what Americans think - which often confounds me as well as many others (as shown in these and many other forums) - despite knowing what the laws say - and I cannot proclaim with certainy how Americans will act - even though I am aware of what the laws say and what I read or hear. However, I do know that to think I can predict their collective and individual actions with such certainty as some claim to be able to do with Islamic (or any other) society is to deny the ever present dynamism of global social transformation as recorded in History - and will surely limit my reasoning.

As far as logic goes - the Nazi argument (as posited) is a valid line of reasoning for this discussion - unless it is incorrectly interpreted by denying the parenthetical comments which correct the propositions that they follow.

The details in the analogy - as in much of this discussion - make a difference.

Richard's $.02
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:50   #50
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Feelings vs fact

Richard

You are saying what you feel - WM is posting what they are saying.

If they say Islam is the only true religion. If they say all others must die, convert or pay a special tax. If they say they want to make Sharia the law throughout the world.

Me? I'll take them at their word.

I don't see the protests they have here in the States as being all warm and fuzzy "can't we all just get along" events.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:35   #51
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What I am saying - some is not all; can is not will; History is not static...and to deny such may be dangerously self-limiting.

The world always has been and always will be a dangerous place - I would like to believe we can make it less so through vigilence and reasoned action - and without resorting to the all or none mentality of the sort which led to the Albigensian Crusades.

Richard's $.02
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“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)

“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:20   #52
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vigilance and reasoned action

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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
What I am saying - some is not all; can is not will; History is not static...and to deny such may be dangerously self-limiting.

The world always has been and always will be a dangerous place - I would like to believe we can make it less so through vigilence and reasoned action - and without resorting to the all or none mentality of the sort which led to the Albigensian Crusades.

Richard's $.02
Absolutes are pretty Leftist way of argueing a point, and lazy, and fact limited in most cases.
Vigilance is most important, but reasoned action, based of who is acting could be "after the barn door is opened" too late.
I don't know what I'm trying to say except there are no absolutes. A lot of "leaders" like to say they speak for "the people". They don't, they normally were just marginally voted in and only represent half or less of "the people"
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:50   #53
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The Leadership Aspect

The leadership aspect here is a key point. Who are the strong charismatic leaders in the Islamic world that want to integrate with the rest of civilization?
I think history shows us people want to be led, and religions are thus subject to evolution and interpretation. A strong charismatic leader seems to be the difference for good or evil.
On one side of the equation you have men like a Lincoln, Churchill, or Ronald Reagan who led their people through times of great peril. On the flip side Germany and Italy were modern Christian nations in the 1930’s and look what Hitler and Mussolini brought to bear.

I am not an expert on Islamic history. I know Saladin was seen as a chivalrous leader by both Christians and Muslims during the crusades. Anwar Sadat tried to bring about peace, and he was assassinated. Ataturk is probably the best modern example as he was able to shift Turkey into a secular state after WW1, it helped that he had the army behind him, but he was credible enough in their eyes that they chose his vision over the religion.

Islam does seem to have some particularly rigid tenets, these are surfaces, their treatment of women is also a glaring weakness, these are gaps. Unless they develop strong charismatic leaders who want to integrate with civilization we will be in constant conflict with them, and need to be for our own safety. So by my rationale maybe Obama is a bigger threat to America than Islam?
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:38   #54
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Richard, with all due respect Sir and IMO, it is the "all or nothing" way. We can all be together on defending our country, our values, our constitution, our core religion (the value of which this country was based on), our rights, etc or we can sit by and very complacently shrug out shoulders and allow all of that to slip away. We see it happening all over Europe. Their courts and laws are used against them, adulation of the PC world is used to against them. Those that don't tow the line and give in, are labeled racists and islamophobes.

I am with WM and Peregrino! The extremists are driving the train any so called "moderate" is going to get thrown on that track for commiting a blasphemy against Allah and the prophet. The facts are there, they are not fantastical stories made up to scare children and adults alike. If most muslims are just along for the ride then keeping their mouths shut against the extremists is to their benefit if islam takes over. IMO, I don't believe there are any moderate muslims, for if they speak out against the extremists they are no better than any infidel and do not deserve to live.

Not to long ago, a friend of mine came back from "the box" and while he was home, his interpreter (a very good friend of his) was with him. We all went out to dinner and drinks. His 'terp' considers himself a muslim (more of a jack-muslim than moderate) but not devout anymore because of what he learned in the mosques he has attended in our country. He has forbidden his family, that lives in Tx, to attend as well and told them that if they want to worship, they can do it at home. His words were, 'I really wish Americans really KNEW what they were teaching in the mosques in America....it is scarey! America is in grave danger and they better wake up and do something about it before it gets any worse". He went to explain how the demand for PC is working against us, he talked about creeping sharia into our court system, our government, our education institutions. Do I trust his words, yes! Not because he backed up what I believe is happening, what I see or have read about what is happening but because he is the first muslim I have met that did not deny deny deny deny!! He and my friend have been friends for years and my buddy said that the guy has said the same thing over and over! Yes, his words scare me but the indifference and acceptance of the Western world, scares me even more.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:31   #55
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This view persists despite their self-proclaimed arguments to the contrary in which they do not "purport to know what [M]uslims think (any of them)" - when they clearly think they do know what Muslims think - that Muslims will interpret Islamic law as dogmatically as they do (while history has shown otherwise) - and that they recognize OBL and other jihadist theorists to be as high a religious authority as they do. Such thinking is very much of the Orientalist type (as posited by Edward Said) and can, therefore, be sadly perpetually myopic and self-limiting in its nature.
Edward Said was a racist guilty of intellectual terrorism. His accusations are one of the reasons why academics are not engaged.
Please read "Defending the West" by Ibn Warraq and then tell us what you think of Edward Said's "Orientalism."
You'll find it refreshingly enlightening.

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I am an American - and I do not purport to know what Americans think - which often confounds me as well as many others (as shown in these and many other forums) - despite knowing what the laws say - and I cannot proclaim with certainy how Americans will act - even though I am aware of what the laws say and what I read or hear. However, I do know that to think I can predict their collective and individual actions with such certainty as some claim to be able to do with Islamic (or any other) society is to deny the ever present dynamism of global social transformation as recorded in History - and will surely limit my reasoning.
I am not purporting to know what Americans [or Muslims] think. I am citing what their LAW says. As an American you are responsible for knowing American law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.

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As far as logic goes - the Nazi argument (as posited) is a valid line of reasoning for this discussion - unless it is incorrectly interpreted by denying the parenthetical comments which correct the propositions that they follow.
If you see a doctor and he tells you that you have CANCER,
does your denial of the diagnosis change the fact that there is a malignant force growing in your body?

A smart person would get a second opinion to confirm,
but its still doesn't change [assuming the doctor is competent].

WE are fighting a malignant ideology.

Denying it does not change the fact that we have a CANCER.

The question is, what are we willing to do about it?

Key will be separating the PATIENT from the DISEASE.



Quote:
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The details in the analogy - as in much of this discussion - make a difference.

Agree.

Last edited by Warrior-Mentor; 08-18-2009 at 12:34. Reason: Fixed formatting problem
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Old 08-18-2009, 15:02   #56
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Edward Said was a racist guilty of intellectual terrorism. His accusations are one of the reasons why academics are not engaged.
Please read "Defending the West" by Ibn Warraq and then tell us what you think of Edward Said's "Orientalism."
FWIW - I have read Warraq's "I am not a Muslim" - and it is quite interesting that you would use his writings to question Said's in such a manner. One point I do think Warraq continually makes with which I agree, however, is that of blind dogmatism tending to have shut many (but certainly not all) Muslims off from the intellectually challenging and exhilarating research, debate, and discussion of the last century and a half - something which may be remedied in large part due to the undeniable impact we're seeing of the WWW on the multi-generational shifts occuring within the Muslim world. But if academics are not engaged in this debate as you say, why quote the likes of Ibrahim - who is certainly engaged and whose writings I have read on Professor Victor Davis Hanson's web-site - so often and so decisively?

Quote:
I am not purporting to know what Americans [or Muslims] think. I am citing what their LAW says.
You should reread your line of reasoning - which has consistently been that because the law says so, you do know that Muslims think it cannot be otherwise. My arguments have been that laws may not always be so rigidly interpolated and that - since it has not been so in the past - we cannot claim with such certainty that it will be so in the future.

Quote:
WE are fighting a malignant ideology.
OK - I will use your cancer analogy since you fail to grasp the points of those that I've used:

We are fighting a potentially malignant ideology which - in reality - neither exists now nor has ever existed as it is being perceived or portrayed by both sides of this struggle. If it did, the broader Muslim world as we know it today would not exist because - as you so obdurately claim - it cannot possibly exist due to the law's saying it cannot and Muslims must obey Islamic law. If that were true - then why does it exist as it does?

But to declare it wholly unresponsive to any form of treatment other than its total eradication - an impossibility even with cancer - is to surrender to the malignancy's perceived potential and - thus - to support its continued growth. This is obviously the desired outcome of those who are now selectively using its tenets for their own malevolent designs - which has been the case throughout recorded History.

My question is - if we tell the patient he must die in order to cure his disease, what then becomes his reason for living and how will he react to that diagnosis? I certainly know how I would respond.

Understand that I am not in total disagreement with all that you are trying to say - however - I am in total disagreement with such an unsupported all or nothing approach to such a complex ideological issue.

Quote:
Key will be separating the PATIENT from the DISEASE.
IMO - key will be to provide support and treatment to the patient in a manner which will eventually force the disease into remission and allow the patient - as well as the rest of us - to be as free of its most life-threatening ills as possible.

Richard's $.02
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:05   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akv View Post
The leadership aspect here is a key point. Who are the strong charismatic leaders in the Islamic world that want to integrate with the rest of civilization?
I think history shows us people want to be led, and religions are thus subject to evolution and interpretation. A strong charismatic leader seems to be the difference for good or evil.
You bring up a good point about leadership in the Muslim world.

Ask yourself, “Who are the most vocal leaders? Who are the most powerful?”

“And what are they saying publically to MUSLIMS?”

After 9/11, American intellectuals and priests wrote a letter to the Saudis titled “What we’re fighting for.”

The Saudis responded with a letter titled “How we can coexist.”

Both of these letters can be found at www.americanvalues.org

Bin Laden effectively shut down the [moderate] Saudis with his response [written by MUSLIMS for MUSLIMS] with an Islamic legal doctrinal denunciation of the very concept of moderate islam in his essay titled “Moderate Islam is a prostration of the West.”

Bin laden’s argument is that “radical” Islam IS ISLAM – without exception.

In the spirit of debate, the American intellectuals responded to the Saudi’s “How can we coexist” with another letter that praised their willingness to correspond.

It remains unanswered.

Why?

Because bin laden’s response was so powerful in using Islamic law to show the Saudis that they were violating the laws of islam…accusing them of becoming apostates and therefore implying that they will go to hell.

Yet bin laden’s response to the United States [written by MUSLIMS for NON-MUSLIMS] titled “Why we are fighting you” does not mention the Islamic doctrines he delineates to the Saudis – doctrines that intrinsically REQUIRE Muslims to attack non-muslims. “Those who do not meticulously follow the sharia are not Muslims at all and can be killed with impunity.”

For example, when addressing the [MUSLIM] Saudis, bin laden writes:

“There are only 3 choices in Islam, either
- willing submission [conversion to Islam]; or
- payment of the jizya [humiliation tax on non-Muslims]thereby physical, though not spiritual submission to the authority of Islam; or
- The SWORD – for it is not right to let an infidel live.”

Yet when speaking to the [NON-MUSLIM] West directly, bin laden portrays islam only as a “religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and persecuted.”

Bin laden himself said:

“Is the atmosphere for understanding found in this [Saudi] declaration based on sharia, or are they merely expressing their own points of view in an attempt to create an atmosphere of shared understandings to be upheld by the governments and institutions?

“Every proposal that can possibly benefit the [secular] governments contradicts the sharia.”

“As for this atmosphere of shared understandings, what EVIDENCE is there for Muslims to strive for this? What did the Prophet, and the righteous forebears do?

“Did they wage jihad against the infidels, attacking them all over the earth, in order to place them under the suzerainty of Islam in great humility and submission?

OR did they send messages to discover ’shared understandings’ between themselves and the infidels in order that they may reach an understanding whereby universal peace, security and natural relations would spread – in such a [color=”Red”]satanic manner[/COLOR] as this?

“The sharia provides a true and just path, securing Muslims and providing peace to the [MUSLIM] world.”


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Islam does seem to have some particularly rigid tenets, these are surfaces, their treatment of women is also a glaring weakness, these are gaps. Unless they develop strong charismatic leaders who want to integrate with civilization we will be in constant conflict with them, and need to be for our own safety.
Not exactly. No strong, charismatic leader can overcome the strength of islamic jurisprudence. It CANNOT be reformed. To do so is to deny the divine nature that islam is perfect. As Mohammed said "Today, I have perfected your religion."
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:50   #58
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FWIW - I have read Warraq's "I am not a Muslim" - and it is quite interesting that you would use his writings to question Said's in such a manner. One point I do think Warraq continually makes with which I agree, however, is that of blind dogmatism tending to have shut many (but certainly not all) Muslims off from the intellectually challenging and exhilarating research, debate, and discussion of the last century and a half - something which may be remedied in large part due to the undeniable impact we're seeing of the WWW on the multi-generational shifts occuring within the Muslim world.
Spend a couple bucks. You’ll be surprised what you find.
Ibn Warraq’s “Defending the West” is worth the time and the money.
http://www.amazon.com/Defending-West.../dp/1591024846

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But if academics are not engaged in this debate as you say, why quote the likes of Ibrahim - who is certainly engaged and whose writings I have read on Professor Victor Davis Hanson's web-site - so often and so decisively?
This is a quibble, but I’ll answer it anyway.

They are the exception. What’s being taught as a rule of thumb in our universities?

Approaching the Qur'an: The Early Revelations by Michael Sells.
http://www.amazon.com/Approaching-Qu...0702016&sr=1-1

Why?

Because all the peaceful Suras are the early ones - "revealed when Muhammed had a small followership and could be as aggressive.
They use this book to deceive and placate the West. The reality is that those early suras (MECCA) have been ABROGATED by the later suras from his later days in MEDINA.
Here’s how you know. Find a copy of the chronological order of the suras of the Koran [must be written by MUSLIMS for MUSLIMS].

Although not ideal, here’s a quick reference:
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Chrono...r_of_the_Quran

Where is Sura 9 (the Sword Verses) relative to all the others?

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You should reread your line of reasoning - which has consistently been that because the law says so, you do know that Muslims think it cannot be otherwise. My arguments have been that laws may not always be so rigidly interpolated and that - since it has not been so in the past - we cannot claim with such certainty that it will be so in the future.
Wrong. My argument is that because this is the law, it is what they are told they are required to think and do. Not everyone follows the law.
Not every Catholic goes to Church every Sunday. Does that change the requirement for them to attend? Clearly no.

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OK - I will use your cancer analogy since you fail to grasp the points of those that I've used:

We are fighting a potentially malignant ideology which - in reality - neither exists now nor has ever existed as it is being perceived or portrayed by both sides of this struggle.
There is nothing POTENTIAL about this malignant threat. To imply so is to pretend what I’m telling you doesn’t exist.
It is to pretend that some how, someone can achieve “peace in our time.” It’s to be relegated to the dustbin of history with Neville Chamberlain.

Victor Davis Hansen: “When Hitler wrote ’Mein Kampf’ (which ironically translates into Arabic as ‘My Jihad’),
he did not hesitate to portray his ultimate worldview. Yet though the world was well aware of his book, IT WAS NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY
– no doubt because many did not think that Hitler had the means to realize his wild visions of Teutonic domination.

“History proved otherwise, and millions died as a result of the world’s indifference to Hitler’s straight forward words.
The Al Qaeda Reader provides the world with al-Qaeda’s ultimate vision. The same mistake should not be made twice.”


Are you going to ignore what the enemy is telling us?

You don’t even have to look for it. Click here to get your Al Qaeda reader:
http://www.amazon.com/Al-Qaeda-Reade.../dp/038551655X

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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
If it did, the broader Muslim world as we know it today would not exist because - as you so obdurately claim - it cannot possibly exist due to the law's saying it cannot and Muslims must obey Islamic law. If that were true - then why does it exist as it does?
I agree. You are confused. Things take time. Read Sayyid Qutb’s Milestones.
Here’s a free link (just add “http://” - there’s no www.)
majalla.org/books/2005/qutb-nilestone.pdf

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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
But to declare it wholly unresponsive to any form of treatment other than its total eradication - an impossibility even with cancer - is to surrender to the malignancy's perceived potential and - thus - to support its continued growth. This is obviously the desired outcome of those who are now selectively using its tenets for their own malevolent designs - which has been the case throughout recorded History.
In many cases, cancer can be completely eradicated. It’s not easy, but it can.

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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
My question is - if we tell the patient he must die in order to cure his disease, what then becomes his reason for living and how will he react to that diagnosis? I certainly know how I would respond.
Who told he patient he must DIE? Glad you’re not my doctor!

First, do no harm.

Stop the spread.

Cut the cancer out.

Chase it with Chemotherapy to prevent recurrence.

Monitor for recurrence.

Repeat as necessary.

This could be the framework for an effective strategy…if only we were willing to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Understand that I am not in total disagreement with all that you are trying to say - however - I am in total disagreement with such an unsupported all or nothing approach to such a complex ideological issue.
You don’t have to believe it. What matters is what our enemies believe.

Back to Sun Tsu…”Know yourself and know your enemy…”

_________________________

“CANCER.”

It’s something you never want to hear your Doctor say.

Yet denial of the diagnosis does not change the prognosis.

Pretending you don’t have CANCER doesn’t change the FACT that you have a malignant growth in your body that MUST BE REMOVED or destroyed or it will kill you.

Unfortunately, this CANCER has already started to metastasize.

It’s the malignant ideology of islam.

The question is, “What are YOU willing to do about it?”

Key to curing the problem is separating the DISEASE from the PATIENT.

First step in most twelve-step recovery programs is to admit you have a problem.

Are you willing to admit we have a problem?


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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
IMO - key will be to provide support and treatment to the patient in a manner which will eventually force the disease into remission and allow the patient - as well as the rest of us - to be as free of its most life-threatening ills as possible.
EXACTLY! Fighting the malignant ideology. Which is what I’ve been trying to get you to understand all along.

Last edited by Warrior-Mentor; 08-19-2009 at 11:54.
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Old 08-19-2009, 13:26   #59
Richard
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Quote:
IMO - key will be to provide support and treatment to the patient in a manner which will eventually force the disease into remission and allow the patient - as well as the rest of us - to be as free of its most life-threatening ills as possible.
Quote:
EXACTLY! Fighting the malignant ideology.
And on this I think we can agree.

Richard's $.02
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“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)

“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 08-21-2009, 14:40   #60
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The first 9/11

I reccomend Radical Islam's War Against the West on DVD, and gatesofvienna.blogspot.com to anyone else following what WM is saying.
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