Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > The Bear Pit > PT/ H2H

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-07-2014, 17:22   #151
WarriorDiplomat
Quiet Professional
 
WarriorDiplomat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: C.S. Colorado
Posts: 2,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasik View Post
Over the years Kenpo Karate, Kali, Silat and JKD.

Presently re-starting with Datu Kelly Worden in his "Essential 24" program as taught to 1st Group at Lewis.

http://www.kellyworden.com/

I trained with Kelly Worden for a year when I was with 1st Group ODA 155

He is an awesome no shit real world take you into the street or back alley kind of guy.
WarriorDiplomat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2014, 07:00   #152
Kasik
Quiet Professional
 
Kasik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 158
Datu Worden

I'm visiting with Kelly this evening in T-Town.

He is the real deal and has devoted himself to developing and teaching real world martial strategy, technique and tactics to 1st Group operators for some time now.
__________________
"Do not look upon this world with fear and loathing. Bravely face whatever the gods offer." - Morihei Ueshiba, Founder of Aikido
Kasik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2014, 10:13   #153
WarriorDiplomat
Quiet Professional
 
WarriorDiplomat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: C.S. Colorado
Posts: 2,021
Worden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasik View Post
I'm visiting with Kelly this evening in T-Town.

He is the real deal and has devoted himself to developing and teaching real world martial strategy, technique and tactics to 1st Group operators for some time now.

I wish we could get a Kelly Worden for every Group, for all the technique teaching B.S. artists out there only a few are legit tough guys like Kelly. His stuff is pretty much street thuggery with skills absolutely loved it, I grew up like Kelly been in some rough places and he is the only guy I completely agreed with based off my experience. I am sure he doesn't remember me but I had a few conversations with him about boxing when he saw my hands when throwing we ended up talking about one his old gym mates and sparring partners from the 70's. Sugar Ray Seales a Tacoma native who had won an Olympic Gold Medal in 72 and had been one of the top middleweight fighters n the world going into the late 70's but unfortunately went blind from detached retina's.

I envy you I would train with Kelly in a heartbeat if I could.

Just out of curosity is he keeping all his stuff local or does he have any vetted instructors he is sending out to train?
WarriorDiplomat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2014, 14:05   #154
Kasik
Quiet Professional
 
Kasik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 158
Local

Kelly himself is staying local for the time being.

He's giving consideration to opening a new school near where he's living and having his senior students assist in instruction.

He's still teaching the "Essential 24" which is a 1st Group program.

And he's still working on his book which is looking very good.

We had good visit and nice dinner (Thai) in downtown T-Town
__________________
"Do not look upon this world with fear and loathing. Bravely face whatever the gods offer." - Morihei Ueshiba, Founder of Aikido
Kasik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2015, 12:40   #155
Rumblyguts
Guerrilla
 
Rumblyguts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western WI
Posts: 176
Enriching daughter's karate?

All,

I have some concerns about my daughter’s karate classes and am looking for some guidance. If you have the time to read this and reply, it’d be appreciated.

My 10 year old daughter is a mid-belt student in American Freestyle Karate (kick oriented) here in town. The teaching methods rely heavily on kata/forms and choreographed responses to “one punch” that includes an initial block then follows with a counter attack/throw (4-6 moves). Sparring is 30 minutes per week as a class. The school combines teens and adults for a different class that I haven’t observed.

I spent a year in Shorin-ryu taught by a bodyguard who stressed "practical" in the mid 80’s and a brief stint in the airborne infantry after that. What seems lacking is for my daughter is realism: quick counters to the groin, knees, eyes, throat, breaks, feels very little contact, etc. Not much of just letting her go, letting her react, nor developing an “attitude” of winning the fight, if that makes sense. Perhaps they’re teaching is tailored to the age group (6-12 years old), but it seems like they’re teaching a dance class rather than something more practical.

This is the only place in town, so I’m coming to you for a bit of guidance about how to enrich her self-defense and make it more practical. A few questions follow regarding what/how karate is taught to children:

1) Are children’s’ advanced classes typically repetitive in nature?
2) Is realism typically left out for kids?
3) Cautions about enriching/interfering with her lessons and learning?
4) Do you have some suggestions for ways to make her self-defense more realistic? Resources? I've read this thread and "Does your Martial art Work" thread and noted those resources. She's a mature 10 year old.

Thank you for any insight,

Rumbly

edit: This was emailed to my former sensei from 1985ish, and he actually called back. His response was that she's young, and learning a foundation. He suggested that while not teaching her the more disabling techniques, plant that there's something more effective out there. Along the lines of "You're learning this and keep it up. But there's more than one way to do things that can be more effective, and you can learn these later." He pointed out that some schools are very black/white with their instruction and might not react well if she does something different. He also stated that by hinting at something different in the future that she won't get brainwashed into "this one way is the right way" and not be able to adapt to something different.

Last edited by Rumblyguts; 01-05-2015 at 13:17.
Rumblyguts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2015, 19:38   #156
WarriorDiplomat
Quiet Professional
 
WarriorDiplomat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: C.S. Colorado
Posts: 2,021
[QUOTE=Rumblyguts;571512]All,

I have some concerns about my daughter’s karate classes and am looking for some guidance. If you have the time to read this and reply, it’d be appreciated.
The teaching methods rely heavily on kata/forms and choreographed responses to “one punch” that includes an initial block then follows with a counter attack/throw (4-6 moves). Sparring is 30 minutes per week as a class. The school combines teens and adults for a different class that I haven’t observed.

Remember that Karate is a self defense art which implies that she is the victim and has already been attacked and must now react essentially being trained to react to the first punch instead of being proactive when danger has been sensed. Kata forms are the equivelant of a boxer or Muay Thai fighter throwing combinations or a wrestler chain wrestling or a grappler technques chaining the difference is in intent. Katas are reactionary and are intended to be automatic reactions self defense in nature as was the purpose of Karate meaning the damage has been done already. The others are proactive in nature and imply that the attacker is striking first. Karate does not teach adapting to the reality of a fight the others dictate where the fight happens and are free flow adapting to the opponents reactions.


1) Are children’s’ advanced classes typically repetitive in nature?

Yes I have noticed that with kids they are usually developed along the lines of their physical development such as balance, concentration. The repetition is ingraining of reactions to establish muscle memory.

2) Is realism typically left out for kids?

In competitive martial arts such as wrestling, boxing, Judo, Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai etc...effectiveness isn't left out. There is not such thing as realism in MA training, I have never seen the fight or flight response replicated, the fear of imminent death, never seen any art here students actually kick others in the groin, gouge eyes, punch throats, knife fight, disarm real bad guys or break necks. There are more realistic arts where a person has to prove their techniques such a single leg takedown, dominant positioning, chokes, a punch or kick followed up by others and responses so you get feedback against a live opponent.

3) Cautions about enriching/interfering with her lessons and learning?

Your old sensei is correct, many schools believe that what they teach is best and seeing a student do something not taught by them is taboo. At her age curiosity kills the cat especially when she sees an opportunity to prove something she was taught elsewhere.

4) Do you have some suggestions for ways to make her self-defense more realistic? Resources? I've read this thread and "Does your Martial art Work" thread and noted those resources. She's a mature 10 year old.

Pull her out of Karate and enroll her in MMA training, she will be far more aware of the reality of what someone tells her as being probable or a gimmick. Many ancient arts taught by American "Sensei" usually teach unrealistic techniques and sometimes make false claims of the lethality without ever having use the art themselves. Having heard from friends in Okinawa the origin of Karate being taught by Masters the commercialism in the U.S. has corrupted the art to being inadequate. The history of Karate was an art for the Okinawan people the poor farmers etc...to defend themselves from mercenaries of Japan called Ninja who governed the Island. It's purpose was out of necessity due to being not allowed to own weapons and the brutality of the bully ninja's but today.....

WarriorDiplomat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2015, 21:29   #157
Rumblyguts
Guerrilla
 
Rumblyguts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western WI
Posts: 176
Thank you for your time.

Remember that Karate is a self defense art which implies that she is the victim and has already been attacked and must now react essentially being trained to react to the first punch instead of being proactive when danger has been sensed. Kata forms are the equivelant of a boxer or Muay Thai fighter throwing combinations or a wrestler chain wrestling or a grappler technques chaining the difference is in intent. Katas are reactionary and are intended to be automatic reactions self defense in nature as was the purpose of Karate meaning the damage has been done already. The others are proactive in nature and imply that the attacker is striking first. Karate does not teach adapting to the reality of a fight the others dictate where the fight happens and are free flow adapting to the opponents reactions.


My view of the "choreography" is that it's developing gross motor skill and muscle memory. Also as a way of herding a group of cats But I'm leery of it developing linear responses and stagnation in reacting to an advisory's attack. My daughter often sees things as black and white, and I can envision her stagnating over choosing the "right" response rather than reacting. The SA aspect is something that we touch on here at home and around town once in a while.

2) Is realism typically left out for kids?

In competitive martial arts such as wrestling, boxing, Judo, Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai etc...effectiveness isn't left out. There is not such thing as realism in MA training, I have never seen the fight or flight response replicated, the fear of imminent death, never seen any art here students actually kick others in the groin, gouge eyes, punch throats, knife fight, disarm real bad guys or break necks. There are more realistic arts where a person has to prove their techniques such a single leg takedown, dominant positioning, chokes, a punch or kick followed up by others and responses so you get feedback against a live opponent.


Aye, the discussion about the scarless knife fighting instructor comes to mind.
The closest she gets to realism is fully padded, torso-contact sparring. (and one tournament) She hasn't felt a hard block in training, nor punched something with little give. The latter parts of your comment match what my old sensei teaches to students her age - go at it and figur out what works.

Pull her out of Karate and enroll her in MMA training, she will be far more aware of the reality of what someone tells her as being probable or a gimmick.

I'd love to change, but this is the only place for martial arts training for roughly 30 miles around. Hence looking for way to enrich what's here.

Many ancient arts taught by American "Sensei" usually teach unrealistic techniques and sometimes make false claims of the lethality without ever having use the art themselves. Having heard from friends in Okinawa the origin of Karate being taught by Masters the commercialism in the U.S. has corrupted the art to being inadequate. The history of Karate was an art for the Okinawan people the poor farmers etc...to defend themselves from mercenaries of Japan called Ninja who governed the Island. It's purpose was out of necessity due to being not allowed to own weapons and the brutality of the bully ninja's but today.....


What you state regarding the commercialism is interesting. This school does seem a bit like a mill rather than teaching something "proven". While this place does well in "karate tournaments", I haven't seen them pad-up the bo staff or escrima sticks and go at it.

Good food for thought. Thanks.
Rumbly
Rumblyguts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2015, 23:29   #158
craigepo
Quiet Professional
 
craigepo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southern Mo
Posts: 1,541
When I was a kid, my folks sent me to a traditional karate school. A few years later, my first day in a Thai boxing gym saw me get my ass stomped. I learned more in my first month at the Thai gym than I had in years with the traditional stuff.

To learn to fight, a person has to actually fight. Somebody can tell you to keep your hands up, but the best teacher is fighting some quick bastard with a good jab who sends you home with a bloody nose. Want to learn how to check a leg kick? Get dropped from leg kicks and you will figure it out in a hurry, or else learn how to deal with deep thigh bruises on a daily basis. Traditional martial arts usually don't have enough contact to teach people what they need to know.

Your situation is pretty tough, not having a good place to train nearby. Like WD said, a good MMA school is hard to beat, the problem being they are not ubiquitous.

If there was a good school within 30 miles, she would get a lot more out of going there on Saturday than she will being taught junk 3 nights a week close to home. In the old days, there was always an old Golden Glove or military boxer in every small town who could teach the kids. Those days are gone.

Maybe if she is at least getting good workouts in, you can let her know that she is just in phase 1, getting the athletic parts down. Phase 2 can come later when a good teacher becomes available.
__________________
"And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods?"
Thomas Babington Macaulay


"One man with courage makes a majority." Andrew Jackson

"Well Mr. Carpetbagger. We got something in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."
Josey Wales
craigepo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 04:31   #159
Joker
Quiet Professional
 
Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2,576
What my two brothers have said and get some good sparring gloves and pads for both you and her and let her beat on you. She will learn a lot and it will give you some bonding time.
Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 09:02   #160
Rumblyguts
Guerrilla
 
Rumblyguts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western WI
Posts: 176
craigpo:

The note of one day at a good place is better than 3 at a mediocre joint struck home and keeping eyes open for another place struck home. She hasn't taken to it as a passion, like someone who loves baseball would just go outside to throw a ball in the air. It'd be interesting to see if she'd do more at home.

craigpo and Joker:
I'm planning on doing some play scenarioes such as random bear hugs in the hallway, more rough-housing, etc. Play, process, explore, bond, etc.

Thanks
Rumbly
Rumblyguts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 10:03   #161
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,779
I would just add that whatever she does, it needs to be fun and entertaining for her, or it will end poorly without the knowledge transfer and experience you seek and she may never try it again.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 10:36   #162
PedOncoDoc
Area Commander
 
PedOncoDoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northeast Utah
Posts: 1,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post
I would just add that whatever she does, it needs to be fun and entertaining for her, or it will end poorly without the knowledge transfer and experience you seek and she may never try it again.

TR
This holds true with wives, too.
__________________
‎"The dignity of man is not shattered in a single blow, but slowly softened, bent, and eventually neutered. Men are seldom forced to act, but are constantly restrained from acting. Such power does not destroy outright, but prevents genuine existence. It does not tyrannize immediately, but it dampens, weakens, and ultimately suffocates, until the entire population is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid, uninspired animals, of which the government is shepherd." - Alexis de Tocqueville
PedOncoDoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 10:56   #163
Rumblyguts
Guerrilla
 
Rumblyguts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western WI
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post
I would just add that whatever she does, it needs to be fun and entertaining for her, or it will end poorly without the knowledge transfer and experience you seek and she may never try it again.

TR
The dojo just changed hands and the new owner-instructor has much more kid-friendly energy. I'm hoping that transfers and will inspire some more spontaneity on her part at home.

Regarding fun at home, I've learned that she doesn't take kindly to my coaching at home when she does some practice. "This is the way I was taught" Me: "but if you pivot more on your back foot, your side kick will be better" Her:"But this is what I was taught" Me:" I heard what you were taught two nights ago - that's not it" Her except with longer hair

So I'm hoping that "gaming it up" or making it whacky, energetic, random, farty, etc. will help. Plus, it's something new, which she should like.

Thanks
Rumblyguts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 11:00   #164
Rumblyguts
Guerrilla
 
Rumblyguts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western WI
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc View Post
This holds true with wives, too.
Ha! One lesson learned while leading canoe trips was to be cautious about placing married couples in the same canoe on the first day
Rumblyguts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 11:12   #165
PedOncoDoc
Area Commander
 
PedOncoDoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northeast Utah
Posts: 1,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblyguts View Post
Ha! One lesson learned while leading canoe trips was to be cautious about placing married couples in the same canoe on the first day
Which reminds me of another great marital lesson - become familiar with the little man in the canoe.

But I digress. In my experience, most martial arts studios that have dedicated children's classes do not focus on realistic combat situations with children less than 12 years of age (with exceptions for those children who have been training for years who are invited to participate in the adult classes). Most focus on basic technique/form, fun, sport (teaching to win competitions/tournaments), fitness, self-discipline and positive self image.

When it comes down to it, a pre-pubescent child will be overpowered an adult attacker, and no amount of training will level the playing field. A child's best bet for survival in a a situation with an adult is a quick move to provide separation directly followed by fleeing to a safe environment.
__________________
‎"The dignity of man is not shattered in a single blow, but slowly softened, bent, and eventually neutered. Men are seldom forced to act, but are constantly restrained from acting. Such power does not destroy outright, but prevents genuine existence. It does not tyrannize immediately, but it dampens, weakens, and ultimately suffocates, until the entire population is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid, uninspired animals, of which the government is shepherd." - Alexis de Tocqueville
PedOncoDoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MCMAP NousDefionsDoc PT/ H2H 14 12-11-2008 13:41
The New York Draft Riots - Civil Disturbances in the Wartime Rear brownapple General Discussions 48 06-16-2004 09:52



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:20.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies