Point Shooting

[Sacamuelas]

Originally posted by Smokin Joe
I personally might try and trap the gun while I shove one of my knives through his larynx past his upper palet trying to get his brain stem (it would be a lucky shot but who knows). Or trap the weapon and stick my gun to his head. It all depends METT-T dependent. As this scenario goes your close REAL close and you are behind the curve so you need to do something to survive. I have done enough martial arts and defensive tacitcs to know that in a situation like this you need to comit to something disarming him may take too long or he may have backed away from you enough to catch you overly commited and completely outstretched.

If you had time to unsheath and use your knife on him before he pulled his trigger then I agree with you that a gun is your better option.
I don't think I worded my question clearly. I will probably get my my questions cleared up as this scenario gets expounded in the future. I don't want to hijack the thread any longer. Thanks Joe.

[BadMuther]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
There’s only a few people on this planet that I allow within three feet of me. So let’s talk 5 feet and beyond and yes I would use a flash front sight. The target is always in focus when using a flash front sight, that’s the idea, when you see the front sight “flash� upon the tgt you used a controlled trigger pull to place rounds on target. I also temper that with the reality one may have to make a “high value� shot and if so the focus would change back to the front sight.

TS

BTW, I do hope you do not allow anyone within 0 feet of yourself unless you are wearing a condom…

TS-Okay, You and I are on the same sheet of music. I guess for a proper discussion, we would all have to agree on the meaning of certain terminology.

The reason I asked about where you are focusing on a flash site picture as I have had instruction at the police academy where the instructors referred to a "flash site" as a quick site picture where you are still focusing on the front site. He was one of those, "Front site focus NO MATTER WHAT" guys.

Thank you for your response.

As for folks within o yards of me.....I went to a Ranger gettogether last weekend, and you just never know about them gay Turd Batters....sneak up on you in a second!!

[Guy]

I'm not getting into a knife fight.

As far as H2H...I'm not doing that either. I just need to create enough distance to "point shoot".

The closer the distance...you can and most likely will "point shoot" because the threat is imminent and the body/mind will react accordingly.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I think Mr. Harsey is right about Col. Applegate's definition of point shooting. I went through the subject in Close Combat Files again.

Team Sergeant - its a shame you don't have more of an opinion on the subject. Not like you to beat around the bush so.

Thinking about this some more, I'm starting to think that its a combination of what everybody has said - body position, practice, muscle memory, confidence, etc. I thought about it yesterday a little while doing an easy exercise - I think the TS is right about the flash site. Even if I wasn't conscious of it. With the body/weapon position the way it is, I can't help but see the front site - its between the ojo and the target. It also seemed I was different on the trigger - harder if you will, and less conscious of it. Doing the same things as always, just not as refined and not a conscious effort. Nike Shooting. LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

I have ordered, to further research the topic and to complete my library, Capt. Fairbairn and the Colonel's books on the subject. Will report back after I beat the Team Sergeant in head to head competition. May take a while, so don't wait up.

[Team Sergeant]

NDD,

Please post a link (or PM) to where you purchased these books. I wish to read what the good Col wrote regarding shooting techniques, I’m not convinced he was speaking about "point shooting" as we know it.

TS

The glove is thrown. I await your arrival. .45’s, combat loads, iron sights. Loser sends SOWF $100. Winner buys the beer. Bring it on.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Amazon.com

I ordered Shooting to live by Fairbairn and Bullseyes don't shoot Back by Applegate.

You'll have to wait. I'm on Protracted War strategy. My target is too strong for me to attack now. I think with this deal, the winner will end up spending more money than the loser. LOL

[Team Sergeant]

Let me know what you think of “Bulleyes don’t shoot back�. If all the shooting instruction is by the Col I’ll buy it, if Michael Janich discusses point shooting than it’s a no go. He’s got no experience with handguns and absolutely zero in the creds area as an operator. He’s nothing more than a SPE. (Self Proclaimed Expert)

“Janich is also one of the foremost modern authorities on handgun point shooting.�

http://www.martialbladecraft.net/biography.htm

This is the very reason I give point shooting zero credibility. All those that profess point shooting famous capability themselves are nothing but novices in the field of shooting (less Col Applegate). I also find it amusing that all are self proclaimed subject matter experts.

Again I’m not convinced the Col was referring to point shooting as the professionals refer to a flash front sight. If this is the case than it’s not the “point shooting� as everyone thinks, it’s actually a flash front sight.

While we used to actually teach point shooting in SOF we have long since evolved.

Shooting at a target 3-7 feet away could also be called “Blind shooting� because even a blind man could execute that kind of shot each and every time. Blind or Point shooting has no place where innocents are close by or there are more than one bad guy. While I’ve never seen someone miss at 3 feet, I have witnessed hundreds miss between 3-7 meters. A point shooter would not survive in this sort of close quarters combat.

TS

[NousDefionsDoc]

I agree with what you said. There is a chapter devoted to point shooting in "Kill or Be Kilt", and having read it again, I don't think he is using a flash sight picture. Point shooting, as espoused by the Colonel is NOT for hostage rescue. It was developed to teach large numbers of people how to defend themselves with a handgun at very close range in the shortest amount of time possible. Mostly agents having an encounter with Nazis in a train station or such. It is therefore, a defense technique IMO and not related to hostage rescue, which requires high speed precision shooting and is offensive (especially to the hostage takers). Two different techniques for two different problems.

The other reason I would call point shooting defensive is the continuous talk of reaction and convulsive movements. This to me implies a defensive move after the fact.

Having said all this, I think point shooting is still a valid technique if used for its intended purpose.

Good discussion.

[Team Sergeant]

And therein lies the vast difference between law enforcement and SOF. We do not instruct our men in "defensive" handgun tactics or techniques.

As everyone has told me about the Col he was trying to impart his knowledge to the LEO's, which makes sense teaching them such techniques. (Until you have two armed bank robbers hold off 100 LEO's for 45 minutes because defensive point shooting techniques suck.)

TS

[NousDefionsDoc]

Even more than attempt to teach LEOs, I think the whole mindset of the times when Fairbairn, Sykes and the Col. came up with point shooting was defensive. There was a big fear of a Nazi invasion of Britain. In addition, what agent would intentionally start a gunfight?

Also, as we have discussed, Fairbain and Sykes developed most of their systems while members of the Shanghai Police, so it all makes sense.

[Team Sergeant]

OK, no more until I read the Col books!

TS

(I’m not reading anything with Janice as an author, in my book he’s a wannabe that has tied his wagon to a real legend.)

[NousDefionsDoc]

Point Shooting

"In zee name of zee Fuher, stop zee train."

"You are looking much like zee Ameri-can. Give me zee papers!"

"BAM BAM!"

"RUNAWAY!"

[NousDefionsDoc]

If you don't want to see Janich, don't get Bullseyes Don't Shootback - he's the demo for all the photos.

Shooting to Live is a pocket book and I like it better. The information in both is the same.

It will work, I think, but it goes against the grain of what we already know and I think will cause development of some bad habits for our business. probably very good to teach large numbers of people to defend themselves in a very short time.

I'm sticking with flash sight - I'm already so fast doing anything else wouldn't be fair.

[Bill Harsey]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, a really big strong limb. I believe that Col. Rex Applegate would enjoy the hell out of this thread. I know he was always looking for a better way to use a handgun. His interest in this came from personal experience. NDD is exactly correct about why Col. Applegate taught point shooting. The reason Col Applegate took his point shooting and turned it towards law enforcement is that cops were getting their ass kicked in close quarter gun fights across the nation. In Col. Applegates own words to me, "There are always the gun nuts in a police department, these are the guys who take a great interest in training to shoot and learning about firearms. Many other cops recieve poor training and can't shoot under stress, this is shown in the incident reports in many big police agencies across the United States." Cops were losing too many gunfights for the Col.s taste so he decided to turn what he knew about shooting towards law enforcement. This was a late development in his life, I know this because, at Col. Applegates request I re-did his WW2 drawings of point shooting from soldier to cop for publication in the police magazines.