05-12-2006, 14:37
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#16
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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there were pieces 2, 5, maybe up to 10 or 12 grain at the largest, and by x-rays that we took, there were 100's of pieces that is consistent with near complete fragmentation of the metal part of the bullet. The clear difference is as TR points out. The gel block has little fragmentation and very little/almost no evidence of a temporary cavity. The permanent cavity is the most pronounced aspect of that picture. In real tissue the temporary cavity was DRAMATIC and all 100-500 permanent cavities left a devistating wounding pattern. The bottom line is that there is NO CORRELATION from one 'artificial' medium to the live tissue with respect to this ammunition. It does not take a rocket scientist, or brain surgeon to see this....it is plainly obvious. yes, your honor, I swear to the integrity of the digital photos, they were not edited: I was there doing the dissections of the animals and the pics are exact representations of what I dissected....it's the truth and nothing but the truth...it's my reputation on the line and I'm not about to jeapordize it for any reason or any one. ss
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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05-12-2006, 17:09
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#17
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 154
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mugwump
It looks to me like there are a significant number of fragments at about 4.5" along the gelatin track. With a starting weight of 60gr and recovered weight of 40gr it appears the bullet may have left a significant fraction of its 33% weight loss there. I assume the fragments peeled off some distance before the point where they ended up. Four inches seems to be a resonable "depth" for the pig heart - if so it could explain the massive shredding observed. Are the head-on and side gelatin photos cattywampus? It looks like six is twelve, photo to photo, from the placment of the fragments. It makes sense to me that passing through materials of differeing densities, as in a body, could dramatically affect the fragmentation of a bullet. The red caption ("Despite hyperbole...") implies some dispute here. I assume there is "history" here?
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The approximate weight of the bullet core construction material is 41.0 grains. The recovered bullet core projectile was measured at 39.5 grains. Although the jacket material was shed during the gelatin impact the bullet core construction lost approximately 1.5 grains of mass during the 18.1 inches of penetration. The Le Mas bullet also demonstrated almost no expansion as it passed through the calibrated tissue simulant as is noted in the report. Additional ballistic gelatin testing by Mr. Roberts for the same Le Mas AP 9mm bullet design after first penetrating hard 3A armor also showed the recovered bullet core material to also show little to no expansion.
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APLP is offline
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05-12-2006, 18:03
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#18
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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And as APLP points out, the gel covered by armor had NO, let me repeat NO correlation to tissue covered by armor. The same devastating effects were observed in the live tissue after the round penetrated armor, either IIIa or 3/8ths armor plate....not seen with gel simulant. ss
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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05-15-2006, 09:32
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#19
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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An issue that some people have about the LeMas ammo seems to come from the inability to adequately explain how the round "does what it does". I know for a fact Coke and Pepsi each guard their recipe in a vault; it is a 'trade secret' that others try to replicate....and criticize. My interest is simply the terminal effects on living tissue, with or without armor over it. I have my own theories on how the bullet fragments, when and why, but that interest does not stop me from from saying good things about it.....being critical of an propietary technology is not what I'm after. I can't explain how we do 3-D reconstructions on our state of the art 64 slice CT scanner...but I use it because it helps me diagnose my patients. Same with this ammo, I may not be able to explain how the bullet works but have seen the end result and have been impressed with it. ss
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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05-15-2006, 10:38
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#20
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,781
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Exactly my point, Doc. I cannot explain how it works. I only care that it does what they claim, consistently. I cannot tell you how a transmitted signal to a television is translated into a picture either, but I do not really care, as long as it works. Frankly, I believe that efforts to explain the technology by those who do not really know have damaged the credibility of the ammo as well. As long as it blows big holes in bad guys, no matter where it hits, the physics of how that happens is not a real concern of mine, unless I am trying to defeat it, or compete with it. TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-15-2006, 10:49
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#21
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Occupied Pineland
Posts: 4,701
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Direct tie-in with the "Laws of the Natural Universe" thread: "If it sounds dumb but it works - it's not dumb". I'm with TR - I don't have to know how it works, all I care about is that it does. If the testing media can't adequately explain observed "real world" results, maybe it's time to relook the testing protocols. My .02 - Peregrino
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Peregrino is offline
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05-16-2006, 08:11
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#22
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Asset
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 3
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Can anyone confirm the first two paragraphs in this article? http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=577 It talks about how special operations forces are currently using this ammo in the field right now, just wondering if it bs. Thank you, Dave
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dave13 is offline
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05-16-2006, 08:33
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#23
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dave13
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Why would you ask us about the veracity of a thread on another website? David Crane wrote the article, why not ask him at defensereview? TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-16-2006, 08:41
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#24
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Asset
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 3
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I apologize, it will not happen again. Dave
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dave13 is offline
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05-16-2006, 09:52
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#25
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dave13
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Where do you think you are? You eat a whole lot of stupid for breakfast? Do you think we are airsofters or members of tacticalchildren.com? You think we're here at your whim and will answer any and all questions classified or unclassified? I don't want to see you post for about 6 months. If so I'll ban you. The rest of you do try to keep your heads out of your ass. Team Sergeant
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"The Spartans do not ask how many are the enemy, but where they are."
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Team Sergeant is offline
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05-19-2006, 10:14
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#26
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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Gentlemen, an additional fact of 'validation' to add to my commentary. I just spoke to a representative from Mullins Ammunition. They design and manufacture different types of ammo and posed the question: for some of your ammo, is there a difference between what you see in a block of gel vs. what you see in live tissue with the same round? Answer: "yes, a dramatic difference, there is no comparison. The gel doesn't show the degree of injury that the tissue does" To clarify, they hunt with their ammo as their 'live tissue test medium' during regular hunting season. He stated that gel "doesn't give you the full picture of what the round will do to tissue" Now, this is the first of what I believe will be more opinions on the lack of a 'high degree of corrolation' between gel and tissue...as I stated in my commentary. Gel is useful to test certain types of ammunition as to it's inherent ballistic properties....if the ammo conforms to the 'norm', which LeMas does not...it is a different technology...same shape, same caliber, but different in how it performs. I have no idea the composition of their rounds, and don't care. It works as it is stated it to, reproducibly. I don't know what composition DVDs and CDs are but they work as advertised. I don't know all of the blends of metals are in the blade of my pocket knife, but I bought it because it has the features I wanted, it works as advertised....so does LeMas....the only people that should not like this round are the ones that produce gel since it is not the correct test medium for this round.
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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05-19-2006, 10:37
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#27
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,781
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swatsurgeon
...the only people that should not like this round are the ones that produce gel since it is not the correct test medium for this round.
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Exactly. There are people whose entire professional reputation is staked to ballistic gelatin as a test media for terminal ballistics. You are threatening their livelihood, and they (and their sychophants) do not like it. Kind of like the heretics who were tortured to death for arguing facts, in the face of logic. I have never had to threaten to whip somebody's ass to win an intellectual argument. At the same time, I have never seen so many people who have absolutely no personal experience with a product argue so vehemently against it. It is like a Ford vs. Chevy argument between a test driver and an elementary school student who is basing all of his knowledge on what his daddy told him. Thanks for having the intestinal fortitude to say and do the right thing. Those who are attacking you without having tested the ammo themselves should be ashamed for they are truly tools being used by somone for his own personal advancement. DOL- TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-19-2006, 11:52
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#28
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 198
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Request clarifiction
Aside from LeMas AP 9mm ammo, is there any data on the actual terminal balistics (not gelatin tests) for the non-armor piercing 60gr 9mm rounds available to civilians from RBCD? I've been researching and have yet to find information similar to that which the Doctor has provided.
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"Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one."
Bruce Lee
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Texian is offline
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05-19-2006, 12:26
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#29
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
Exactly. There are people whose entire professional reputation is staked to ballistic gelatin as a test media for terminal ballistics. TR
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And this is directly linked to their profit margin. It’s remarkable what the sheeple will believe. The majority acquire all their information from a single source, even though that source is a snake-oil salesman with a profit motive. A good number of these followers would rather be told what to think instead of how to think and this contributes to the reason of why the snake-oil salesmen flourish. Dr. Vail (and LeMas) has shaken the very foundation of an enormous industry. The sheeple being sheeple are afraid of change. The snake-oil salesmen take advantage of this deep rooted fear and reassure the sheeple all is well and nothing will change. Personally I see a deep crack in the foundation. As some become more aware and start to think logically they will come to make that leap of logic; we are evolving, from spears to swords to bow and arrow to lead bullet, to copper jacketed, to armor piercing pistol bullets with enhanced lethality. Soon we will leave the kinetic energy weapons behind, again the snake oil salesmen will appear and the argument will continue…. These snake oil salesman are on every internet “tactical” website, be it gun, ammo, weapon, knife etc and they are there for a profit. Everyone is struggling for their piece of the pie. The sad truth is some have no integrity. They will outright lie, cheat and steal for profit. The firearms industry websites with “forums” are the worst. They know no bounds save one, making money. My personal favorites are run by civilians touting themselves as “tactical masters”. They are nothing more than “self appointed” snake oil salesmen if you ask me. If you have never faced anything more dangerous than a well armed block of ballistic gelatin you should not be offering opinions concerning anything tactical let alone running a tactical website forum. The only thing more unintelligent than these snake oil salesmen are their followers. We do not discuss tactics on our forum. There is a reason for this, we are capable (and recently demonstrated) of overthrowing countries. We do not share our training, techniques, tactics or procedures with the world. Much of what we learn is classified and the very reason we don’t discuss TTP’s. The ball is in your court Dr. Roberts. I've no doubts as to why you will not respond to Dr. Vail on this public forum…….. We are not sheeple. We have no profit motive, no sponsors etc. If you prove to us that LeMas ammo is crap we will laud your triumph. So far all you have done is talk ballistic gelatin with sheeple, let’s talk tissue damage with real professionals. Oh and for the record, I’ll take the opinion of a TRAUMA surgeon over that of a DENTIST concerning live tissue injuries every time. And if I ever find myself facing an armed and angry block of ballistic gelatin I’ll be sure to consult with the sheeple on the best method of neutralizing that block of ballistic gelatin. Team Sergeant
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"The Spartans do not ask how many are the enemy, but where they are."
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05-19-2006, 12:40
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#30
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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Texian, I know nothing of the ballistic information of RBCD ammo. It is different than the LeMas...same manufacturer, different make-up (as per information forwarded to me)....so can't help you on that one. ss
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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