03-29-2004, 03:26
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#1
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
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Che
I've started reading Che's Guerrilla Warfare (or Gorilla, for you scixelsyd), and was wondering why he failed to implement methods which he suggests in his book when trying to subvert the Bolivian government?
IMO it seems that he chose his location geographically as opposed to trying to find a base of people which he could co-opt, and that this lack of public support in his AO made him far easier to catch.
Solid
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Solid is offline
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03-29-2004, 09:40
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#2
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Quiet Professional
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He didn't choose the location. He was set up for failure - mostly to keep him out of Argentina and Cuba.
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He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-29-2004, 20:26
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#3
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
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EG had a specific idea of what he wanted for location, but he gave in. The location of the base in the backwards southeast was chosen by the Bolivian Communist Party leader Mario Monje.
The BCP was much less cooperative to the guerillas than the PSP (Partido Socialista Popular) had been in Batista's Cuba.
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pulque is offline
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03-30-2004, 04:37
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#4
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Guerrilla Chief
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Thank you for the clarification. I was very much surprised by how easy-to-read Guerrilla Warfare was, and that for the most part it lacked out-and-out political rhetoric (other than naming the guerrilla's the 'people's army' etc).
To an outsider, it seems that much of the tactics and concepts written about in GW are similar to those used by USSF. Was there an omni-directional flow of information, did one concept feed off of the other, or did they develop seperately? Noting the date, SF had been around officially for one year (10th Grp).
Does anyone know approximately the time when the helicopter-insertion warfare techniques used by Air Assault and Cavalry in Viet Nam was first coined?
Thank you,
Solid
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Solid is offline
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03-30-2004, 06:04
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#5
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solid
Does anyone know approximately the time when the helicopter-insertion warfare techniques used by Air Assault and Cavalry in Viet Nam was first coined?
Thank you,
Solid
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I believe the Air Mobile concept was developed in the 63/64 time frame and deployed around '65 with the 1st Cav. But don't quote me on that.
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Kyobanim is offline
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03-30-2004, 06:40
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#6
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solid
Does anyone know approximately the time when the helicopter-insertion warfare techniques used by Air Assault and Cavalry in Viet Nam was first coined?
Thank you,
Solid
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You need to read "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young".
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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03-30-2004, 08:26
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#7
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
You need to read "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young".
TR
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Also came out as a Movie. Mel Gibson lived with General Moore for several months and the General was there during the filming. I saw an interview with the two of them and Mel was amazed when the General took him to the Post Cemetary at Benning and introduced him to several of his Troopers !!
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Ambush Master is offline
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03-30-2004, 09:32
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#8
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Guerrilla Chief
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We Were Soldiers Once... And Young is a great book... I don't remember it having hard information on Air Mobile Warfare, but then again I read it in seventh grade. I figured that 'Air Mobile' was coined quite a bit after GW was written.
The movie was good, but IMHO not as good as Black Hawk Down, largely because it took so much from Brave Heart in terms of plot rhythm. I also really dislike the fact that for these movies, actors go to 'school' to learn to 'fight like soldiers'. It seems that they then leave and believe that they actually understand what soldiering is about, although they have hardly even completed 1/10th of Basic training. BHD is good in that the Rangers went to a course which taught them how to look and act like Rangers, but nothing more. No pretenses.
Was there any relation in the development of SF UW techniques and Che's writing?
Thank you,
Solid
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Solid is offline
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03-30-2004, 09:49
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#9
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solid
Noting the date, SF had been around officially for one year (10th Grp).
Thank you,
Solid
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How do you figure one year?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-30-2004, 10:20
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#10
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Whoops! I got the date he finished medical schol (53) and the date he published GW (1961) switched. 10th Group was established in 1952... So, more like 9 years. I'm not too good on dates without memorisation, will not make that mistake again.
Does the codified doctrine of Guerrilla Warfare originate in Mao, or were there works published after the Peninsular war?
If there are books which would help me on the matter, I'd much rather self-educate than lean on you guys. I know I've ordered a few already, but they're taking their sweet time to get to me!
Thank you,
Solid
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Solid is offline
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03-30-2004, 10:50
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#11
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Quiet Professional
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Small Wars by Caldwell - If you can find it
Clausewitz' works
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-30-2004, 13:54
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#12
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Guerrilla Chief
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Thank you.
I still haven't gotten through Clausewitz- while I KNOW it's the better translation (Paret and Howard), it's still pretty tough to absorb 100%, especially with school work.
Solid
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Solid is offline
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03-31-2004, 08:40
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#13
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
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Guerilla warfare has been around since the beginning of warfare itself. As for modern times I believe Mao Tse Tung and Ho Chi Minh codefied the principles in writting. In my day in Training Group (1963), a lot was taught from the works of Chairman Mao.
The 10th SFGA deployed to Germany in 1953.
Batista fell in 1959. I'm not a historian but I believe Che would have started compiling his book at this time.
Last edited by QRQ 30; 03-31-2004 at 10:38.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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03-31-2004, 10:21
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#14
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by QRQ 30
Perhaps you are talking of 1958 when JFK recognized and authorized the wearing of the Green Beret.
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Kennedy was not elected President till 1960, and took office in 1962.
The beret was formalized by President Kennedy in 1962:
"It was President Kennedy who encouraged the wearing of the green beret by the Special Forces. Preparing for an October 12, 1961 visit to the Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, the President sent word to the center's commander, Brigadier General William P. Yarborough, for all Special Forces soldiers to wear the uniform as part of the event.
The President felt that since they had a special mission, Special Forces should have something to set them apart from the rest. In 1962, he called the green beret "a symbol of excellence, a badge of courage, a mark of distinction in the fight for freedom."
HTH.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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03-31-2004, 10:28
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#15
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Small Wars by Caldwell - If you can find it
Clausewitz' works
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Thanks for recommendations
Caldwell's book is available on Amazon for $18 used
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