Rifle Scope Needed

[Roguish Lawyer]

I have consulted with a few on the board about this and think I know what I want, but one QP suggested that I start a public discussion on the topic.

I recently purchased a Remington 700P LTR in .308. I need a scope. I am not yet trained in long range target interdiction, but I will be learning from someone qualified to teach me. The rifle will be used for long-range target shooting and perhaps some hunting. I am somewhat insensitive to price, but I don't want to buy more scope than I can realistically benefit from.

I presently am inclined to purchase a Nightforce 3.5-15 x 56 NXS, but I am open to suggestions.

[longrange1947]

If price is not a big deal then a Schmidt and Bender is the scope you need. The glass will put the Night Force to shame. Take a look at their web site. They now have a good number of scopes in that power range and you will see much better at low light when hunting then with the Night Force.

My second choice would be Zeiss or their military scope Hensholdt. Again glass is far better.

Not American but better.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I preach a Leatherwood ART scope. Used by the military for many years'60s and '80s. It had gone out of production for some years and then resurfaced in a bad form and now have come back running hard. They have the distinction of being the ONLY scope with an external ballistic cam. The cam is attached to the power ring and when a target is "ranged" in the scope you just pull the trigger and hit (minus windage hold.
Presently he offers The M-600, the M-1000, and the M-1200.
The M-600 is zeroed at 200meters and will be crosshairs on out to 600mtrs., and is adjustable for all caliber rifles i7cal to 338cal.
The M-1000 is specifically designed for the 308 in M118 ball. It is zeroed at 300mtrs and crosshairs on out to 900 mtrs.
The M-1200 is zeroed at 300 or 400mtrs and is cross hairs on to 1200 mtrs and works 308 to 50 cal.

once zeroed the shooter can acquire,range and fire within 3 seconds. it is an excellent scope for fast shooting multiple targets.

Go the "leatherwood Optics" and watch the Video. on another note I made this recommendation to one of the 101st's bdes and they bought 24 of them. They took them to JRTC and loved them them deployed to Iraq and continued to love them. No problems no breakages still in use. Give it look see, a simple scope to use. Blitzz

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Blitzzz

I preach a Leatherwood ART scope.
Blitzz

I went through Special Forces sniper school using that scope, don't think I'd ever buy one.....

Great scope as long as you "always" use the same bullet.... And even if you do use the same bullet the ballistic cam is not the most reliable instrument I've ever used......

Schmidt & Bender 12 x 50 PM II Military might be a better choice these days...

TS

[Peregrino]

Price is the "Great Discriminator". LR1947's suggestions are for guys with DEEP pockets. Wish I had the money to take his advice. One of the best long range shooters I know uses Weaver T-Series scopes. Another figures it's easier to buy adequate (cheap) scopes and "retire" them after a few seasons. Both of these guys are expert shooters with military backgrounds. Their requirements no longer demand the extreme scopes LR is recommending and they don't see the sense in "wasting" the money on unneeded capabilities. (Course both of them already have safes full of the expensive stuff too!) Many companies manufacture adequate scopes. Personal opinion - long range shooting requires resolution 1st and magnification 2nd. Light gathering is 3rd (real snipers have access to expensive toys to aid in low-light shooting). Identify your requirements - do you need the extreme capabilities (and concomitant quality) that a military or police "sniper" requires? If so, take LR's advice. Next down would probably be the NF or a US Optics. After that maybe Leupold, then Burris, Nikon. After that tradeoffs start becoming more apparent. Then you have to look at mounting systems. You're going to have fun mounting the NF 56mm obj low enough to be comfortable; you'll probably find yourself wishing for an adjustable comb before you're finished.

And (finally) to offer an answer to your original question - Leupold 4.5-14x50mm LR/T M1 TMR. It will do everything you want and not be overkill on a .308. Illuminated reticles and MD vs. TMR are outside the scope of my enthusiasm tonight. HTH

[cornelyj]

I'm kinda glad you guys started this thread. I recently purchased a rifle from a friend to bag my first deer ever.

HOLD LAUGHTER... its a Weatherby Vanguard 30-06. Its just the bolt and barrel and my plan is create a stock and fix the bolt release that is broken and maybe if I get happy with the welder I will add a tactical knob or two.

This aside I don't have a 2,000 buck budget for a scope and personally don't see spending anything more than 300 on a deer rifle scope a reality. I was wondering if you had any suggestions in that price range for a good all around scope that won't die really fast and will get the job done. I know not ever scope in your guy's safe's is in the 2 g range!

While I am on the subject do you guys have any tips for rifle construction and or preferences on shape of stock and why?



Sorry for the Hijack Lawyer.

[Justinmd]

RL,
First you will need to fully define your requirements. Long range means different things to different people. Also, what types of targets will you be shooting at? Do you want to mil with it?

For someone just getting into the game, it's hard to beat a Lupy fixed 10 power with M3 (1moa) knobs.

Nightforce makes good stuff. So does S&B of course, if you want to get let go of some money. Premier Reticles has a new scope out ($2800) that has a lot of fans, though I haven't tested ours fully yet.

If you start simple, then later you can decide if you want a FFP scope with mil knobs like an S&B, or if you like 1 or 1/4moa clicks.

[longrange1947]

My problem with the cheaper scopes is the inability of many of them to hold a zero and tracking sucks on many. We just had an example of the difference in glass. Compared several scopes side by side and the difference is noticeable in daylight. Night is especially noticeable.

TS with you, used the ART I and II as well as the "Special Urban" series for too many years and I would not buy one either. The external cam wears and that throws the trajectory off. Never did have one that was correct.

If you want US made then the Night Force is fine. If you are indeed insensitive to cost as stated, I would definitely go S&B and their prices are coming down.

Note, buy the S&B from Germany, the Premier Reticle scopes are a big problem. It is showing in their new line as well. The reticle will jump when first changing power. This is a noticeable jump and if you go past your power setting and come back a bit it returns to zero, if you do not then you have a zero shift. We have only noticed this on the premier made S&Bs an their new scope. Mine, German made, does not. Neither does any other German made S&B. Just a fair warning guys. You may find them on the market for a fairly cheap price, question where they were made.

[Air.177]

I believe that Leatherwood has licensed the name and that the optics are now being produced offshore, so the Leatherwood of today is not the same as the Leatherwood of old.



Good times,
Blake

[mcarey]

Dont forget that the base and rings you use will insure that your scope stays put and true. I would recommend any good one peice base (1913 picatinny) to fit your action and a good set of rings. If you spend good money on a tactical scope, I recommend LaRue or Badger they are the foundation and interface and they matter!

Also, if you pick a Nightforce I would recommend a 50mm the 56mm is too big for tactical / feild use. Larue has a nice combo with a zero stop (second link below), also necessary for quick range adjustment. Note, a S&B requires 34mm rings, not standard 30mm. Hope the links below help.

Larue links

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetac...tail.bok?no=35

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetac...ail.bok?no=216

Badger links

http://www.badgerordnance.com/productgroup.php?id=rails

http://www.badgerordnance.com/productgroup.php?id=rings

[DinDinA-2]

Here is an interesting read on BC Scopes and custom rifles.

This site has their long range rifle/scope information.

http://www.longrangestore.com/v/vspf...b_brochure.pdf

This is their home page.

http://www.thebestofthewest.net/

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

The rifle will be used for long-range target shooting and perhaps some hunting. I am somewhat insensitive to price

RL

You might want to split the effort into a hunting scope (1.5x6) and a target(10x).

The mechanical problems with scopes that have a wide range (1x to 99x) get compounded when you move from one extreme to the other end.

Minute of head at 600 yds and minute of rack at 100 yds really has different requirements..

Again, as stated,, Requirements drive the solution...

Extending the requirements will drive multiple solutions...

Additionally, If you do plan to hunt eatable critters at 600 yds, you way want to step up from the 7.62x51.. A larger caliber round can compensate with
a flatter trajectory,, sometimes..

My $00.0002

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

As Mark Twain said There are two kinds of advice, the kind you accept and the kind you don't.
I like these threads because I get to read the posts of people who have actually used and not be so reliant on rumor and here say and unsubstanciated opinion.
As to the scopes I can tell you about, they are:
Two Leatherwoods the M600 and the M1200( I mentioned them above). Yes there are made abroad, so are Zeiss,(never mind). The quality of the Leatherwoods are greatly improved over their scopes of a few years back. I used the old ART I,and ART II for over 14years. I consider them to be the best type of scope for military use because they range and fire within 4 seconds.

I can say that one of my favorites is a TASCO worldclass 3 X 9, mil Dot. I used it on a heavy cal (8mm) for 11 years. and it never lost it's zero. About $80.00. I still have it in my safe as a back up but replaced it with a Leatherwood.
I have a BSA 4 x16 on My 30-06 and have had no problems with zero in 8 years of shooting 240gr HPBTs at @2650fps. About $130.00

I can only tell everyone not to be affraid of the Leatherwoods. He has produced the new M-1000 which is a new version of the old ART ii, but better. Blitzzz

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Justinmd

RL,
First you will need to fully define your requirements. Long range means different things to different people. Also, what types of targets will you be shooting at? Do you want to mil with it?

This is really just an expensive toy for me. I live in the city and will not have many opportunities to shoot this rifle. I have never gone deer hunting but I have friends who have been trying to get me started. Most likely I will be taking it to Phoenix for occasional shooting lessons out in the desert, shooting whatever targets my instructor selects. And I may use it to hunt at some point also.

To be candid, I got this to add another capability to my toolbox. I have three handguns, a shotgun and an M-4gery; this one was acquired to add long-range capability. Having had no training at all in long-range shooting, I can't tell you what long-range means to me other than "really far away."

Thanks to everyone for the comments -- keep 'em coming!

[Sinister]

I agree with Rick (LR1947) on the Schmidt/Bender and Hensholdt but the Euro exchange rate may influence your choice.

If you have access to a Mil/LE vendor or qualify call direct to Nightforce and specify you want the MILSPEC version (you'll be happier than with a commercial off-the-shelf as they are more selective on lenses and they seal the scope better on MILSPEC scopes). Mil/LE can also get a zero-stop (you dial down to your default zero of say 300 yards and dial back up). Kenton Industries can provide a laser-engraved turret with your load come-ups if you know them.

Nightforce scopes are fairly heavy but I'm happy with mine. I chose the 5.5-22X versions although lots of guys are happy with the 3.5-15X.

Rick, didn't know about the backlash problems with the Premier scopes -- good to know.

You'll want a sloped scope base (Badger, Near, or Nightforce) if you want to go all the way to 1,000 yards with a 7.62mm. The Nightforce has the available internal adjustment but you'll probably want the erector system centered in the tube for maximum windage adjustment range at your farthest distances.